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post #16 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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The biggest problems with repowering are:
The machine was abused to the 10th power if the engine is gone... hydro pumps & motors are probably also trashed, or at the least have never had a lick of maintenance. Anything greaseable has never been greased.
OEMs offering 0%, 2%, 4%, my bank offering 3%-4.5%...
I wasn't very clear there... I'm going to have to get a GREAT deal on something with a blown engine to pay cash for it instead of low rate financing. I'm also taking on a machine that already has evidence of severe abuse/no maintenance which cuts the price even further so I can "self warranty" everything. My time is worth something so I should be "paid" (saving more) for the time I will actually spend repowering.
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post #17 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by DL-North View Post
Maybe the 1st question should be how and/or what do you envision using this tractor for?
Do you need a SCUT, or would a large GT work?

Dan
I have a small acreage. I need to mow about 3.5 acres fast because I hate mowing (belly mower + offset pull mower to mow 100+ inches per pass). I need to tend the garden which is currently about 14'x70' with room to grow as big as 1.5 acres. I need to repair and maintain ~700' of neglected gravel driveway and do snow removal on said driveway.

I have what I believe is a fairly large GT (JD GX345). I would really like something with more legroom and something where I don't have to reach down as far to release the parking-brake (come to think of it I really don't like anything about the brake on that machine from the pedal position to the release lever). Also I would like FEL, 3-PT, etc. I would like to really cut down on my snow removal time: bigger snow blower, especially taller to handle the deep snow, shaft driven so the belt doesn't get wet and slip when the snow is deeper than the blower is tall. Blower and blade on the same machine would help a lot, so I could use whichever is a better tool at the time/place.
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post #18 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 11:11 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by Eric2075 View Post
I have a small acreage. I need to mow about 3.5 acres fast because I hate mowing (belly mower + offset pull mower to mow 100+ inches per pass). I need to tend the garden which is currently about 14'x70' with room to grow as big as 1.5 acres. I need to repair and maintain ~700' of neglected gravel driveway and do snow removal on said driveway.

I have what I believe is a fairly large GT (JD GX345). I would really like something with more legroom and something where I don't have to reach down as far to release the parking-brake (come to think of it I really don't like anything about the brake on that machine from the pedal position to the release lever). Also I would like FEL, 3-PT, etc. I would like to really cut down on my snow removal time: bigger snow blower, especially taller to handle the deep snow, shaft driven so the belt doesn't get wet and slip when the snow is deeper than the blower is tall. Blower and blade on the same machine would help a lot, so I could use whichever is a better tool at the time/place.
A 345 is not a big GT it's a medium duty GT that weighs only about 100lbs more than a large LT most serious GT's weigh 800lbs or more some as much as 1,200lbs with no ballast. A full size Heavy GT is just about as big as a SCUT.

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post #19 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 05:01 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

I know this is a discussion about "Engines", but the heaviest built GT is no substitute for a Sub Compact Tractor. The anatomy is completely different. One is an honest to goodness tractor, albeit small in stature. The other is a Garden Tractor, complete with crappier,,, well everything, relatively speaking. I defy you to do the type of work a SCUT was built to do with any GT, no matter how heavily built it is. The work will be slower, with a GT, and the GT will give up the ghost long before the SCUT will. I'm not bashing GT's. There are some really great ones. But they were built for small plot gardening and general yard work. SCUT's were built to do tractor work, albeit on a smaller scale. (Not that there's anything wrong with that).

On the engine. So, I am not expert by any stretch of the imagination. So I am going to come at this topic with the mindset of your average home owner.

1) There simply MUST be a reason why tractors of all descriptions since at least the 80's have been Diesel. If there were significant advantages to gas powered tractors, people would be manufacturing them, and customers would be buying them. But that's not the way it is. That's just a bit of back of the napkin reasoning for ya.

2) Diesel engines were as far as I know, literally built for agricultural applications. At least in the early going, these engines were magnitudes simpler to build and simpler in operation, not to mention easier to maintain, than their gas counterparts. They were also, at least originally, created to run basically anything you could put in the tank. They seem to me as though they were tailor made to be used in tractors.

3) I am not convinced by your argument with the Gas Torque superiority. How many dump trucks, tractor trailers, pieces of heavy equipment, large generators, trains, boats, are there that run on Gas? Not knowing the first thing about the nuts and bolts here, I fall back yet again to basic reasoning skills. There simply must be something about the power curve of a diesel engine that makes it the hands down choice for lugging.

Last thing I will say on the subject. I can't help but raise my eyebrows at most of your argument for wanting a Gas engine over a Diesel engine in the first place. In the 6 years I have owned my SCUT, I have had none of the issues you use to support your argument. My LS Tractor (S) have performed for me flawlessly. A block heater goes a long ways in the winter. By all means, if you fancy a Gas engine over a Diesel, nobody here will tell you straight up not to do it. Rather you buy a gas machine, or retro fit one into a diesel machine. But I don't think it's anything but the truth to say that there are probably only 3 people in the whole USA that prefers a Gas engine over a Diesel in their Tractor. =)
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post #20 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 06:48 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DL-North View Post
Maybe the 1st question should be how and/or what do you envision using this tractor for?
Do you need a SCUT, or would a large GT work?

Dan
I have both a heavy GT (2wd gas) and a SCUT (4wd diesel). The major task for both has been snow removal. The diesel has the advantages of lower fuel consumption and slightly more speed, but those are the only advantages. In all other aspects of the operation, the GT is better with lower maintenance costs (fluid and filters), more pushing power, more lifting power, and better maneuverability.

In spite of its lack of 4wd and diff lock, the GT has never been stuck in snow so bad that it couldn't work its way out. The SCUT, that does have those advantages, has had to be hauled out of the snow bank by a 2 ton truck. Speed is not always an advantage when it gets you further into a situation that you don't really want to be in.

I haven't come across a task yet, after 12 years of trying, where the diesel outshines the gas in winter operations. It only shines in the summer because it has 4wd and a back hoe.

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post #21 of 65 Old 04-18-2018, 08:21 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by Eric2075 View Post
I have a small acreage. I need to mow about 3.5 acres fast because I hate mowing (belly mower + offset pull mower to mow 100+ inches per pass). I need to tend the garden which is currently about 14'x70' with room to grow as big as 1.5 acres. I need to repair and maintain ~700' of neglected gravel driveway and do snow removal on said driveway.

I have what I believe is a fairly large GT (JD GX345). I would really like something with more legroom and something where I don't have to reach down as far to release the parking-brake (come to think of it I really don't like anything about the brake on that machine from the pedal position to the release lever). Also I would like FEL, 3-PT, etc. I would like to really cut down on my snow removal time: bigger snow blower, especially taller to handle the deep snow, shaft driven so the belt doesn't get wet and slip when the snow is deeper than the blower is tall. Blower and blade on the same machine would help a lot, so I could use whichever is a better tool at the time/place.
I had this problem. 2.5 acres that took too long to mow, and a need for all the things that a decent small tractor would do.

Solution: Bolens HT-23 with blown motor, repowered with Kohler EFI, and an older Scag Turf Tiger 61". Commercial ZTR is a way faster mowing solution if you have anything other than an open, flat field; and you can keep your tractor in some flavor of working configuration instead of mower. Both made in Wisconsin as a bonus, and the pair was way cheaper than a newer SCUT. I have a mower deck, tiller, 48" wide 27" tall blower, cab, 54" mower deck for the tractor, and 54" blade, as well as a 3 point. Been watching for the FEL, but they've either been beat or expensive. Downside with the Bolens is lack of a 540 rpm rear PTO that works with the 3 point, but, given the attachments that are available for the tractor, I'm not really sure what I'd want to put on the 3 point that needs a 540 drive.

Both machines are shaft drive and Kohler Command Pro powered, although the mower is carbed. There is the odd occasion that I wish the tractor had 4wd, but with chains and weights, it's just not needed. I got 20" of that wet snow this last weekend, and the tractor didn't have any trouble pushing into 5' drifts with just the rear weights on...cab and wheel weights were already off for the year.

Diesel fuel has decent lubricating properties for the reciprocating parts in the engine, where gas doesn't. This accounts for much of the difference in longevity. The lower RPM that diesels excel at is another part of it...great torque at the bottom lets you run lower rpm on average. The heavier general build of diesels to handle the bigger forces that come with high compression ratios accounts for the rest. A "pro" or "hd" gas small engine is considered to be doing really well to pass 2000 hours without being opened up. I suspect it would be very a hard sell to have a machine that would be, what, 90% of the cost (transmission, axles, frame, hydraulics all have to be just as big to keep the capability) with a ~2000 hour gas engine vs. 100% of the cost with a 10,000 hour diesel. I believe that the demise of the last truly HD gas small engine (the Kohler K-series) is part of what killed off almost all of the large gas garden tractors by 1990--the cost vs value curve had shifted too far vs. diesel.
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post #22 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 04:27 AM
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They don't make them because most people don't want them.
Majority of people want to pay more upfront, pay more for service, pay more for parts.
Because they NEED a diesel engine!

Never mind all the 50 year old gas tractors running around in the US.

I think fuel economy is the only place diesel is proven better.
I also think all the added diesel expenses negate that advantage. Especially now that diesel fuel almost always costs more per gallon than gas these days.
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post #23 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 04:40 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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They don't make them because most people don't want them.
Majority of people want to pay more upfront, pay more for service, pay more for parts.
Because they NEED a diesel engine!

Never mind all the 50 year old gas tractors running around in the US.

I think fuel economy is the only place diesel is proven better.
I also think all the added diesel expenses negate that advantage. Especially now that diesel fuel almost always costs more per gallon than gas these days.
Funny how the gas tractors are all 50 years old...... Diesel is better. Once the manufacturers figured that out, gassers went away.

Fuel economy is a big one, but longevity and torque are two others. There isn't a gas engine around that is even in the same league as a diesel engine as far as longevity is concerned. Diesels are less expensive to own over a longer period of time. Service intervals are longer. Parts CAN be more expensive, but they are less prone to failure than their gas counterparts. If you are the type to trade your equipment in every few years, you may not see the advantage of a diesel engine, that does not mean there is no advantage, however. I enjoy mowing all summer on one or two tanks. The gas engine it replaced used a tank per mowing.

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post #24 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 05:21 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

An industrial gasoline engine will likely last as long as an equivalent diesel one; but most gasoline engines today are built lightweight and high powered. It's not due to the fuel they use, but the design they're built to. As said above, check some of those old gasoline engine tractors, still running today.
It doesn't have to be diesel to be tough.

Diesel fuel, being more stable, stores longer. A carburetor gasoline powered engine can have trouble starting and running after time idle, due to grunge buildup from evaporating fuel.
If fuel injected much of that problem goes away, but then the cost is nearly the same as a diesel engine.

In every country I'm aware of, except the US, diesel fuel is far cheaper than gasoline [this is not for technical or environmental reasons, it's political and social. But that's another subject].

The resulting overwhelming preference for diesel powered everything is more psychological than economic. Gasoline is considered ostentatious, wasteful, inefficient. The social pressures of those perceptions are more powerful than the actual numbers.

As scuts and agricultural machines are built for a worldwide market, economy of scale means that you Americans get a better deal if you buy the same machines everyone else buys.

If you put a modern gasoline street vehicle engine into a boat or tractor, set it to never rev more than 50% of the street application maximum.

This is because street specification assumes that it won't be done except for short bursts. Marine and industrial use is continuous.

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post #25 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?


Bravo Mark.

Torque is a non-issue. If the gas engine doesn't have enough torque, it's not the right (gas) engine for the application. Engine longevity is a non-issue. As mentioned above, a significant number of 80+ year old gas tractors still run. I also wonder if the fuel economy advantage still exists (or has been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced)? I know in U.S. diesel cars and trucks, the emissions regulations have been decimating the fuel economy of diesels - sure they have better emissions but they now use 20% more fuel. Gas engines are getting more fuel efficient (especially in this 20-50 HP space) while diesels are getting less efficient.

Non-emissions diesel VS carbureted gas = Diesel is clear winner.
Emissions-compliant diesel VS Closed loop EFI gas engine = I don't know, I haven't seen a real comparison.

I'll open a Crowd-Funding page so everyone here can chip in to find out. I'll get a Deere X730 Gas (then have to re-power it with a closed-loop EFI engine) and X750 Diesel. I will alternate which one I use to mow every week this summer and keep detailed fuel consumption logs.
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post #26 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 10:12 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by Eric2075 View Post

Bravo Mark.

Torque is a non-issue. If the gas engine doesn't have enough torque, it's not the right (gas) engine for the application. Engine longevity is a non-issue. As mentioned above, a significant number of 80+ year old gas tractors still run. I also wonder if the fuel economy advantage still exists (or has been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced)? I know in U.S. diesel cars and trucks, the emissions regulations have been decimating the fuel economy of diesels - sure they have better emissions but they now use 20% more fuel. Gas engines are getting more fuel efficient (especially in this 20-50 HP space) while diesels are getting less efficient.

Non-emissions diesel VS carbureted gas = Diesel is clear winner.
Emissions-compliant diesel VS Closed loop EFI gas engine = I don't know, I haven't seen a real comparison.

I'll open a Crowd-Funding page so everyone here can chip in to find out. I'll get a Deere X730 Gas (then have to re-power it with a closed-loop EFI engine) and X750 Diesel. I will alternate which one I use to mow every week this summer and keep detailed fuel consumption logs.

Pretty sure the X730 is already a EFI equipped tractor.

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post #27 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 05:43 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

To be fair in this discussion, it should be pointed out that the torque can be measured in two places, engine output and rear axle, and the one does not relate to the other directly when a hydro is involved.

Engine output torque only directly relates to rear axle torque with a manual transmission. The reduction resulting from the various gear sets multiplies the torque value at the rear axle. In the case of the hydros used in GTs and SCUTs, the hydro motor displacement and the pressure within, multiplied by the gear reduction of the final drive, determine the rear axle torque.

Engine horsepower is the determining factor for axle torque with a hydro at a given hydro pressure. It takes horsepower to generate movement. Torque does not generate movement without horsepower to back it up.

The axle torque difference between a 24 hp diesel SCUT and a 24 hp gas GT is determined by the transmission and final drive reduction since they both use the same rear tires. The downfall for the GTs is that the final drives are not capable of handling the torque generation capabilities of the hydros that were installed in the heavier models. The SCUT final drives are built stronger, but they both spin their wheels with the same load on the rear tires.

Both SCUTs and GTs are light tractors and way overpowered for their axle torque handling capability. Engine torque and horsepower ratings are for calculating the size and workload capability of powered implements, not for moving the tractor under normal conditions.

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post #28 of 65 Old 04-19-2018, 07:52 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by Eric2075 View Post

Bravo Mark.

Torque is a non-issue. If the gas engine doesn't have enough torque, it's not the right (gas) engine for the application. Engine longevity is a non-issue. As mentioned above, a significant number of 80+ year old gas tractors still run. I also wonder if the fuel economy advantage still exists (or has been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced)? I know in U.S. diesel cars and trucks, the emissions regulations have been decimating the fuel economy of diesels - sure they have better emissions but they now use 20% more fuel. Gas engines are getting more fuel efficient (especially in this 20-50 HP space) while diesels are getting less efficient.

Non-emissions diesel VS carbureted gas = Diesel is clear winner.
Emissions-compliant diesel VS Closed loop EFI gas engine = I don't know, I haven't seen a real comparison.

I'll open a Crowd-Funding page so everyone here can chip in to find out. I'll get a Deere X730 Gas (then have to re-power it with a closed-loop EFI engine) and X750 Diesel. I will alternate which one I use to mow every week this summer and keep detailed fuel consumption logs.
I'll have to disagree on torque not being an issue. Torque level at an rpm is the horsepower figure; the equation to calculate it: HP=Torque (lb*ft) * RPM / 5252. I'll agree that gasoline engines can certainly be designed to generate better levels of torque, but typically are not, because the top rpm figures suffer, which in turn limits peak power production.

Diesels have 5 characteristics that, on average, tend to make them torquier at low rpm than similar gas engines, those being higher compression ratios, higher flame propagation rate, longer stroke length, forced induction, and fuel energy content. Stroke length is a pure design feature that can be added to gas engines for similar results, as can forced induction. As far as compression ratio and burn rate, direct injection gas engines come closer to diesels, but a typical port or throttle body injection gasser like you'd find at the top end of the small engine market today isn't close. Diesel fuel also contains about 15% more energy per unit volume than gasoline.

Taken together, those characteristics provide great torque at low rpm, which results in more power being available at low engine speeds. For non-PTO tasks, this allows one to run the engine slower for the same result, which tends to increase fuel economy. You can get similar results to diesel physics with a direct injected gas engine, but then you've lost the cost advantage, and still have the 15% energy density issue. It's looking like the next generation of DI gas engines will need emissions traps for particulates that are similar to the ones used by diesels now, which will push the fuel economy pendulum back toward diesels.

Old gas tractors had very well built engines, which consequently last a long time. Farmers (at least the ones I know) are, by and large, pragmatists; they pick the option that provides the best value when it comes to long term investments. My father in law is one of them; he still milks about 70 head. The bottom line is that, from a life cycle cost standpoint, including purchase price, maintenance, and fuel, gas tractors cost more to own over the long haul. Now, the ag market is a lot different than the SCUT market, to be sure, and this analysis may not be valid for SCUTS.

Gas engine longevity in modern engines is an issue due to how they're built. If you build them to last, like the old tractors were, they cost like a diesel. Once you get to that point, you get better winter starting, and....that's about it.

I'm on board with your general reasoning for having gas, as I made the same choice myself. But, per what I outlined above, I also understand the decision by manufacturers to not put gassers into tractors anymore, as there isn't much market for it.


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post #29 of 65 Old 04-20-2018, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Pretty sure the X730 is already a EFI equipped tractor.
I'm 99% sure the X730 uses an Open-Loop EFI engine, meaning it's barely better than a carburetor... Open loop EFI fuels according to a programed table for RPM, Load, Temp, maybe other things like barometric pressure, etc. Closed-Loop EFI starts out with the base-map the open loop system uses, then uses feedback from the O2 sensor to fine-tune the fuel injected in near-real time. The adjustments closed loop systems make are what really make EFI more efficient than carburetors. Why a manufacturer would make an EFI engine without a feedback loop is beyond me when considering how cheap O2 sensors are and how much benefit they provide.
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post #30 of 65 Old 04-20-2018, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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I'll have to disagree on torque not being an issue.
My point was in this space of 20-30 HP engines, if the gas engine does not deliver enough torque at the proper RPM it is not the right gas engine for the job. People make false arguments here that I read as this: "The job requires 43 lb*ft torque 'down-low', no gas engine on earth can make that much torque 'down-low'." False.

You also pointed out forced induction which, while true, is not relevant to any engine that I am aware of in this 20-30 HP GT/SCUT space. Over the last several days, I have looked at several dyno charts of various gas and diesel engines used in GTs and SCUTs... they can be remarkably similar.
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