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post #1 of 48 Old 03-17-2019, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

I'm upgrading the hydraulic pump on a JD-400 with an FEL and Backhoe. The pump - new in the box - came with the tractor when I bought it. I confirmed it's the right size for this tractor. I'm trying to figure out what the parts do as I know little about them.

Photos of:
PTO output spline
Old pump with output spline adapters/collars
New pump
New pump gizmo
Adapters/collars

The new pump is laid out in the order of the parts. The two collars or adapters DO NOT rotate inside the big chain gizmo.

Questions:
What is the yellow gizmo and what does it do? The hole thing rotates so it doesn't seem like it would be a clutch. I suppose I could Googlebang around, but would rather have an expert ID what it is and the function.

The yellow chain gizmo is in a clam-shell with rubber ring seals. Is it filled with fluid?

Are there any parts missing from the assembly for me to install it?
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
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post #2 of 48 Old 03-17-2019, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

More photos
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
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post #3 of 48 Old 03-17-2019, 08:06 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

The yellow-covered gizmo is baffling me, too. I don't understand what its purpose is. It seems to simply be being used as an adapter between the pump shaft and the splined pto shaft. But why so complicated?

Instead of the gizmo, could the shaft-pto adapter from the old Cessna pump be used with the new pump? All you need to do is spin that pump. It's not complicated -- connect pump shaft to pto shaft. Often, love-joy couplers can be found to match both shafts.

Unless that gizmo is somehow reversing the shaft input, because the pump rotation direction doesn't match the pto rotation? But I would just get the correct pump rather than go through a complicated gizmo.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along who recognizes the gizmo.

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SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #4 of 48 Old 03-17-2019, 08:38 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

I think the yellow thing is just a safety cover to retain those roller chains in case one ever broke..
The idea of the chain coupler is to allow two different shafts to be joined together by two sprockets and the double roller chain,same as using two lovejoy couplings and the rubber insert,but the chain is a lot stronger and allows for some misalignment without strain on the pump shaft..


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post #5 of 48 Old 03-17-2019, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

I agree to all - which is why I posted. That gizmo is waaay to complicated not to have a specific function. And is likely way too expensive for the guy to buy it for the heck of it.

Yup - I could just plug the pump on to the output shaft - which is why the gizmo seems to have importance.

My best guess is it absorbs any minute misalignment or out of balance which would transfer a wobble harmonic into the pump.
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
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post #6 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 03:45 AM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

You need a mount for the pump, otherwise the pump will spin when the hydraulic pressure builds.

The yellow cover is to contain the grease that needs to be packed around and through the chain for lubrication. Unless the seals are very loose, the cover spins with the coupling. Without the cover, the grease gets thrown off and lands everywhere in the vicinity.

All coupling are sensitive to misalignment. Those with elastomeric elements, like the Lovejoy, are somewhat less sensitive than those using gears or chains. The shafts can be bushed to the same size by finding the master link in the chain and turning the coupling halves end for end. This makes the job of aligning easier. After the pump is mounted, use a straight edge along both coupling halves at the top (12 o'clock) and on the side (3 or 9 o'clock) to ensure alignment. Any daylight between the straightedge and the flat of either coupling half is unacceptable. Move the pump in its mount and/or add shims as necessary to achieve alignment, then mark the pump and shim stack locations for reinstallation after the coupling is reassembled and in place.

That type of coupling has a lot of rotating mass and very limited "give", especially when brand new. Any misalignment is going to play havoc with the bushing in the front end of that pump. The elastomeric element in a Lovejoy is actually more forgiving for this type of application.

What is the displacement of the pump and the rpm of the PTO?

Bob

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post #7 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 08:16 AM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

The old Cessna pump is very low-profile compared to that new pump, and used a compact solid coupler. It probably only protruded a few inches forward of the tractor.

If you use that bulky chain coupler in combination with that new longer hydro pump, you may find that the whole apparatus sticks out too far in front of the tractor. It could be vulnerable to damage, and may even interfere with the FEL crossbar.

I would look for a compatible Lovejoy coupler at McmasterCarr. They are very reasonably priced.


..




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #8 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

Thanks Tudor and Urban guy.

The pump has a heavy mount you can see the top of in the first photo. I can easily fabricate a bracket for it. When assembled, the pump is in about the same place as the Cessna pump. Maybe a tad farther out, but not much.

Tudor - you validated the pump and rpm's in an earlier post on my main thread: Refurb: JD-400 with backhoe/front loader
It's a Dynamic model GP-F10108PC (pump spec is attached as PDF)

So.... this begs the question of whether I should use a different/better coupler. You both mention the Lovejoy coupler - is it a better choice? What style/model would you recommend?

https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/products/
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck

Last edited by ToasterTan; 03-18-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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post #9 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

Specific pump spec in both PNG and PDF (easier to read)
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
ToasterTan is online now  
post #10 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 12:55 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

I'm going to throw out a word of caution too.

It looks like the original used a solid coupling and a torque arm. The solid coupling is just that, a solid connection, so both ends should be tight with set set screw or two. The torque arm should be against something solid; like, the frame. The arm should be contained in a slot parallel to pump shaft to transfer torque and still allow some movement to relieve stress from pump shaft. So a solid coupling and flexible mount.

Your making a solid mount and a flexible coupling, which will also work, maybe better, as long as the solid mount is solid and the alignment can be maintained.

I think the original method was chosen because it will be difficult to make a good solid mount.

I'll be keen to see the outcome. Did the original pump fail? If so how did it fail, i.e leaking due to side load? Sometimes the connection between the torque arm and the retainer wears or something gets bent and puts stress on the pump shaft causing failure.

BTW, those chain couplings are way too expensive for me. I buy Love-Joyy equivalent for $20.00.

Girls with large lawns like a guy with a really big deck!
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post #11 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 01:14 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterTan View Post
...

So.... this begs the question of whether I should use a different/better coupler. You both mention the Lovejoy coupler - is it a better choice? What style/model would you recommend?...
Tudor may have another suggestion, but these (or similar) are what I had in mind:

https://www.mcmaster.com/lovejoy-couplings


..




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #12 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydronerd View Post
I'm going to throw out a word of caution too.

It looks like the original used a solid coupling and a torque arm. The solid coupling is just that, a solid connection, so both ends should be tight with set set screw or two. The torque arm should be against something solid; like, the frame. The arm should be contained in a slot parallel to pump shaft to transfer torque and still allow some movement to relieve stress from pump shaft. So a solid coupling and flexible mount.

Your making a solid mount and a flexible coupling, which will also work, maybe better, as long as the solid mount is solid and the alignment can be maintained.

I think the original method was chosen because it will be difficult to make a good solid mount.

I'll be keen to see the outcome. Did the original pump fail? If so how did it fail, i.e leaking due to side load? Sometimes the connection between the torque arm and the retainer wears or something gets bent and puts stress on the pump shaft causing failure.

BTW, those chain couplings are way too expensive for me. I buy Love-Joyy equivalent for $20.00.

Yes to all Mr Nerd -
The chain setup protrudes a little further, but doesn't interfere with FEL, although it WILL be more exposed to being struck by debris. I don't anticipate a problem fabricating a robust bracket for the pump mount. I can weld some 1/4" plate bolt on and come out from the frame ends. I can also make a cover-cage to protect it above and below. Below are some photos of the original positioning.

I believe he was going to replace the original because the FEL and Backhoe moved slowly and he thought a bigger pump was needed. What he failed to do was flush the system, which was full of water and spooge. The new pump IS a good upgrade, but new hoses and cleaned out system will do wonders for operation.

**************************************

I'm back to the original question: Which coupler is a better choice for this application.
Will the Lovejoy be a simpler, less failure prone solution?
Is the chain coupler hard to mount and align to the point it may cause pump failure?

I'm looking for the BEST setup. Since the pump and coupler were 'free' - I don't mind changing things.

*
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Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
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post #13 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

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Originally Posted by UrbanTractor View Post
Tudor may have another suggestion, but these (or similar) are what I had in mind:

https://www.mcmaster.com/lovejoy-couplings


..
If you look at the Lovejoy website there are several flavors of the motion control type couplings. They are variations of what you selected from Mc-M. I'm wondering if there is one better for this application.

https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/products...rol-couplings/

I looked at the Mini-soft and Miniature Jaw (L) as options. They seem to lend their designs towards vibration and misalignment forgiveness.

Thots?

*

Stephen

80 JD-400: backhoe - Front loader - 54" blade - 42" rototiller
89 JD-318: 54" blade - 42" mow deck - 30" rototiller
98 LT-155: 42" Freedom mulch deck (now a cart tug)
99 LT-166: V-twin - 42" Freedom mulch deck
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post #14 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 04:17 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterTan View Post
If you look at the Lovejoy website there are several flavors of the motion control type couplings. They are variations of what you selected from Mc-M. I'm wondering if there is one better for this application.

https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/products...rol-couplings/

I looked at the Mini-soft and Miniature Jaw (L) as options. They seem to lend their designs towards vibration and misalignment forgiveness.

Thots?

*
I would probably just go with that option at McMaster. It's the basic/standard lovejoy coupling that is tried and true, and low cost. Offered in lots of different shaft sizes, so easy to pair up.

If you want to fine tune it, some of those other options might offer a few advantages. But I doubt you'll really notice any difference. Here's an FAQ that might help you choose:

Jaw Coupling Overview - Features & Benefits, Design Basics, and Element Options | Coupling Answers | Where the World Turns for Coupling Knowledge


..




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #15 of 48 Old 03-18-2019, 06:14 PM
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Re: New Hydraulic pump for JD-400

If I got drive coupling for free, I'd use it. I didn't mean to come off all thou shalt not doeth; after all, that $100 pump (the chain coupling probably worth more) will likely last 10 years, even with a little misalignment, and then you buy another one.
I was trying to suggest that the original setup was fine, with a little maintenance.

Girls with large lawns like a guy with a really big deck!
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