20G pto clutch cone bearing question - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-14-2019, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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20G pto clutch cone bearing question

The pto on my 270 hour 20G would not turn. I could not figure out why but I did try adjusting pto lever and over filled transmission oil with no change. I took it to a gravely dealer who said it was the pto clutch. After spending $1760.00 ( parts were $928.00 ). I was shown the old clutch cone which had no trace of any lining on it. It has several large gouges on the surface where the lining should have been. I was told they found no other broken pieces in the transmission and had no idea what caused this. Does anyone here have an idea of what could have caused the gouges? Also they did not replace the 2 clutch cups, which in my opinion should have been replace due to the clutch cone bearing damage. Is my thinking way off base here? I tried several times to talk to the mechanic but I was always told he was not there or too busy. I just do not want to replace the pto clutch in another 270 hours. I will appreciate any theories on what may have happened.
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post #2 of 32 Old 09-14-2019, 09:03 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

I would have replaced the cup also as it may now have deep gouges. Also, the bearing should be replaced. This does not typically occur inside of about 700 hours unless running the 60" deck or run out of adjustment.

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post #3 of 32 Old 09-14-2019, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

RedRider, looking at the parts listing the roller bearings on each side of the clutch cone bearing are sold as a set under p/n 08703400. Are these the bearings you suggest should have been replaced? I do run a 60" deck but only had to try to adjust the clutch earlier this year at about 268 hours because the pto was spinning slowly and discovered the pto lever was almost up against the forward part of the slot in the control cover. Shortly after that the pto stopped turning at all. I was told the tech who did the job had never replaced a pto clutch before but was a certified Gravely tech. Hopefully the clutch cups were ok because it is too late now.
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post #4 of 32 Old 09-16-2019, 09:22 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

Do you engage and disengage the PTO at an idle?
If the PTO was slipping it may cause the lining to come off.
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post #5 of 32 Old 09-17-2019, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

Yes, I do engage and disengage the pto at idle. I have owned an 18G for over 25 years-it has about 950 hours-and have never had a problem with the pto. I owned a previous 20G that I put over 1500 hours on-no problems, and my brother in-law gave me his old Gravely 432 that had over 2000 hours before it needed a new pto clutch. The only problems I have with Gravely is with belts on the 50 inch mower decks-the 60 inch decks I own have never given me problems. I understand the possibility of maybe the lining was bad from the factory but I am mainly curious how the gouges got on the clutch cone-and why only on one side.
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post #6 of 32 Old 09-17-2019, 12:28 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

On the surface, it looks like your parts cost should have included the cups.

The last trans teardown I did, had a destroyed thrust bearing on the pto shaft. The rollers fell into the case and were circulated for countless hours as the oil was churned up... they did a number on the ring gear and final drive gear. Maybe some wear particle like that got into your cup on the one side.

Last time I checked it was about $800 for a set of cups and cones... about $100-$125 more for seals/gaskets.
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post #7 of 32 Old 09-17-2019, 02:37 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

Once the clutch lining has worn through, the clutch will typically continue to appear to work normally (for a very short time), but the friction is now from metal-on-metal contact and the harder steeel of the cone assembly will be deforming the otherwise smooth surface of the inside of the cast-iron cups. This deformed cup will shred a new clutch lining if it is used with the old cups. Check out the sticky on the PTO clutch assembly.

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post #8 of 32 Old 09-17-2019, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

yamato72, thanks for the link to your sticky. It was very informative and the pictures cleared things up. jj94tt, I looked at the parts diagram for p/n 08703400 (clutch cone) and it looked to me the cups were not included and no cups were listed on the invoice separately. I tried to mow with it for the first time after getting it home. Before I mowed I took a quick look and found the pto lever was hitting the front of the pto slot on the control cover. I adjusted it to a 3/4 inch gap. After mowing for about 10 minutes the tractor started slowing down then speeding up and I noticed a burning smell so I stopped the tractor. I found the wiring harness going to the engine and the positive cable going to the starter laying on the hot engine or touching muffler. The engine harness is burnt through and the positive cable is scorched. Tomorrow I will position my 18G next to the 20g and repair the burnt wires and reroute them properly. The wires are routed wrong from front to rear. Having the two tractors should allow me see if anything else was done wrong externally.
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post #9 of 32 Old 09-18-2019, 08:16 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

addisongravely,

As jj94tt suggests, the amount you were charged for parts would appear to include the cost of new cups. The three parts in question add up to $677 based on current prices from Jacks Small Engines.

Having replaced a PTO clutch in my own G series tractor, I cannot imagine not replacing all three parts. While I had mine torn down, I did every seal, and the clutch discs as well.

You mentioned earlier about belt problems with a 50" deck. Please tell me more? I have 1995 production G tractor with a 50" deck, purchased new in the spring of 1996, and have never had any unusual belt wear or failures - except the one time I tried to use a non GRAVELY belt.

My deck has had one complete going over to rebuild spindles, replace idlers, etc., but in 23 years and about 800 hours it is only on its 4th belt, and one of those was my fault.

My deck has also been upgraded with dual blades, hybrid spindles, and ball bearing anti scalp rollers.









The 50" deck can be "picky" about belt length. And, I have seen newer decks with the tension idler installed wrong. The newer version uses a fabricated tension arm, and has two different mounting locations for the idler, on for the 40" deck, one for the 50" deck.

Incorrect belt length, or incorrect idler location, will cause it to eat belts.

If you have never taken a look, you can read about the long list of improvements I made to my G series tractor here:

https://www.mytractorforum.com/24-gr...rovements.html

I added steering brakes, an aux pedal to kick the tractor into neutral, down pressure assistance to the snow dozer, brighter headlights, lubricated tie rod ends, and much more.



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post #10 of 32 Old 09-19-2019, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

A quick update on what is going on. I talked to the Gravely dealer today and expressed my concerns ( by the way the positive battery cable was melted at the solenoid and was loose and coming out of the replaced positive clamp in addition to all the other problems. I replaced the cable but now the battery cable from battery to solenoid to starter gets very hot and the solenoid clicks once-no crank. One more problem from them I will have to track down.). The tech admitted he thought the cups came with the clutch and when they did not he decided not to order them. He had never worked on a 4-wheel tractor before and just went by his mechanical abilities. I said I would fix all the other items except for the speeding and slowing of the tractor with pto engaged. I would try to see what was going on but that they might end up fixing that. I also said I felt what was fair is I would pay for the cups but they should cover all labor and any new parts that could not be re-used. They have to talk the the owner and told me I should have an answer next week. Thanks for all the replies so far.
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post #11 of 32 Old 09-20-2019, 12:25 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

It's tough, depending on inexperienced techs. :/

For what it's worth, a pto clutch job may seem daunting but it is technically pretty easy except for dealing with the pto shaft itself. Take your time and just put it back together the same way it came apart (the illustrated part diagrams show each shaft in detail). Have the shop do the pto shaft; it can be dangerous.

I'd be worried about them misplacing a thrust washer or something.
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post #12 of 32 Old 09-24-2019, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

I have another question for the board. After turning off the engine after smelling the burning wires I replaced the melted positive cable to the solenoid and repaired the engine wiring harness. Now I get one click-no crank but the battery cable is not getting hot. I have 12 volts on either side of the solenoid and at the starter. Could the melted battery cable have damaged the starter? I never had problems starting before and the Gravely dealer did not mention anything. It did start ok before I smelled the burning wires but not after I stopped the engine I have not replaced the starter cable yet but I did take the starter off and tried it on my 18G with the same results. I did not swap starters to the 20G because I do not want to damage the known good starter.
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post #13 of 32 Old 09-24-2019, 11:37 AM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

Hot cable = dead short (maybe a stuck solenoid).

What got hot: the solenoid signal wire (small gauge) or the starter crank wire (large gauge)?
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post #14 of 32 Old 09-24-2019, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

jj94tt, the cable that melted about 2" from the ring terminal is the positive cable to the solenoid. The cable from the solenoid to the starter got hot enough to burn you. I replaced the solenoid today-no change. I am beginning to think the wiring problem took out the starter. If not a new expensive Kohler starter would the board suggest?
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post #15 of 32 Old 09-24-2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: 20G pto clutch cone bearing question

Give Pat's Small Engine a call.

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