Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator. - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 Old 09-26-2019, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 20
Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

I have a 220 with a 10 hp Kohler and Delco Remy starter/generator.
I found the wiring diagram below.
Please help me understand it. The regulator has terminal L, B. F and G. Terminal L goes to the ignition switch terminal B. That supplies 12V for the ignition , lights and starter solenoid. Got it.
The B terminal on the regulator is hooked to the Ammeter which goes to the battery. OK.
Question. Are the regulator terminal L and B connected together through the points in the regulator?
I'm trying to figure out how the ignition switch gets 12v when it isn't hooked directly to the battery.
Couldn't the ignition switch B terminal just be wired directly to the battery without the regulator?
I guess I'm confused on how a regulator actually works. Can someone explain it is simple terms so a newby can understand?

Thanks
Danford1
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Case 220 wiring diagram.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	64.4 KB
ID:	2397693  
danford1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 10-02-2019, 05:23 AM
MTF Junior Poster
 
locodave64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: S/W burbs of Chicago Ilinois
Posts: 203
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

It's been a while since I have been in the sight. No answers yet. Well I'll give it a whirl.

1st off, Well, on the connect the starter switch to the battery's pos. When I expanded the thumbnail. I couldn't type here. I've been writing on piece of paper going thru what wire does what. Getting tired. Check the fuse on the orange wire going to the B terminal @ the reg. That gives power to the ign switch. #1 to B on the diagram. No power there? Key to start, nope. Key on, no power to #8? Bad switch if power is good to B @ ign switch.

On the starter and gen. Power to it makes it turn to start the engine. Take away power, the faster it spins it generates voltage and amps. Controlled by the reg. The field wire kicks in. Demand vrs output. Excitation. Reg's also need a sensor wire. Whats that? Voltage reg,s do 3 things. Regulate voltage values, amp values for draw on the system and A reverse current relay. To regulate call from. Is it needed from the battery or gen to supply. Regulate voltage draw from batt or gen to keep the system running.
locodave64 is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 10-02-2019, 05:29 AM
MTF Junior Poster
 
locodave64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: S/W burbs of Chicago Ilinois
Posts: 203
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Might make yer eyes cross reading this. Here goes.

-> Generators and Regulators
locodave64 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 Old 10-02-2019, 11:40 AM
MTF Junior Poster
 
locodave64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: S/W burbs of Chicago Ilinois
Posts: 203
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

And yes, at the reg the B and L are connected internally. And B @ the ign switch power to. Is the #4 wire going to the starter solinoid.

Last edited by locodave64; 10-02-2019 at 11:46 AM.
locodave64 is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 10-16-2019, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 20
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

OK. I'm back at this. Life got in the way again...

The tractor starts with the key and runs fine but the amp meter is always showing discharge. I put a volt meter on the battery while running and the gen isn't charging the battery. I checked voltage on the generator terminal and it had 15v or more depending on rpm, more rpm, more voltage. The gen works.
I suspect the regulator is the problem. I removed it, took the cover off and used some 600 grit sandpaper to clean points like we do with points ignitions. I cleaned the ground and cleaned all terminal connections on regulator and wires. I put it back together and no change, it still isn't charging. The next obvious thing would be replace the regulator.
I'm not trying to make anything 100% factory, I just want a reliable tractor. I would like to go with an electronic style regulator instead of the points style. What part number should I look for?

Thanks
Danford1
danford1 is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 10-17-2019, 04:12 PM
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ky
Posts: 3
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

If it is showing discharge when running it may have the wires on the amp meter reversed.
pallmallman is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 10-17-2019, 04:24 PM
Proud Member of the 1K Club
 
MARK (LI)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: LONG ISLAND, NY
Posts: 1,785
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locodave64 View Post
Might make yer eyes cross reading this. Here goes.

-> Generators and Regulators
It's actually a very well written, easy to understand article....my brother had an MG Midget in the late '60s....with a Lucas electric system...if it got cloudy out that car would not start...that is a bit of an exaggeration, but if it was raining out....and you could get it started you really could not go anywhere because if you drove it in the rain and shut it off....it would not start for a couple days after the rain stopped...those Lucas electrical systems sucked
MARK (LI) is online now  
post #8 of 16 Old 10-18-2019, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 20
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Thank you, I read that article.
In the old days we would call that ESD. English Self Destruction. My friends had Lucas electrics and they would have to get rides everywhere because their car wouldn't start. They only ran on sunny warm dry days. In Michigan, we don't get many of those...

My ammeter is wired correctly. I can just turn on the lights and it will show discharge as it should. The generator puts out 15 volts but won't charge the battery.
Danford1
danford1 is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 10-18-2019, 03:55 PM
Proud Member of the 1K Club
 
MARK (LI)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: LONG ISLAND, NY
Posts: 1,785
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Well, there are still a few things you can do...call Jack's small engines...or repair clinic.com...both have knowledgeable people who will find you the right part if you want the regulator...and I am pretty sure they would be able to tell you if you could use an electronic system
What initially happened that made you believe that you have a problem?...I am wondering if you have a wire somewhere that got worn through and is touching the chassis
MARK (LI) is online now  
post #10 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 11:28 AM
Ingersoll Dealer
 
bhildret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,551
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

When the engine is running at 3/4 throttle, what is the voltage at the battery posts?


This is the correct regulator for your application the first one worked probably 35 years, so trying to convert to electronic seems to be an interesting path with unknown benefit.


https://salempwr.com/435-040-voltage-regulator-briggs-stratton-295924/




Brian

Brian Hildreth
President - Salem Power Equipment, LLC
www.SalemPwr.com
[email protected]
bhildret is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 12:01 PM
MTF Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MO
Posts: 33
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Most old generator-type regulators had to be "polarized" properly after hooking them up before they would charge, IF I remember correctly it was use a jumper wire and touch it to bat and F terms on regulator momentarily. I can't remember if this starter/generator setup needs that or not. try search
engine...

Oh, last paragraph in that link above explains it.


don't think I've ever seen an electronic regulator for a generator.
Lane is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 02:32 PM
Proud Member of the 1K Club
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OK
Posts: 1,610
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

The system is polarized every time it is started. Motoring the starter/generator accomplishes that.
antiqueetc is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 10:45 PM
MTF Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MO
Posts: 33
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antiqueetc View Post
The system is polarized every time it is started. Motoring the starter/generator accomplishes that.

Thanks, I was looking at that schematic and thinking; it is full-fielding it to start, why wouldn't that do the same thing? but was not sure enough to comment. My old SS15 Sears had the same type set-up. never had trouble with the generator electrical system, (I miss that tractor.) I had eventually replaced the motor with a 16hp Briggs with an alternator and separate (piece-of-crap) starter, Should have remounted the generator...

Had enough troubles with generators on old VW stuff and some cars I've owned. Still have a fiberglass bodied VW dune buggy with a 6V electrical system and generator.
Lane is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 02:35 AM Thread Starter
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 20
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARK (LI) View Post
Well, there are still a few things you can do...call Jack's small engines...or repair clinic.com...both have knowledgeable people who will find you the right part if you want the regulator...and I am pretty sure they would be able to tell you if you could use an electronic system
What initially happened that made you believe that you have a problem?...I am wondering if you have a wire somewhere that got worn through and is touching the chassis

This is a new to me tractor. It needed a few things to get it running. It runs well but noticed the ammeter showed discharge so I got the volt meter out... hence the thread.

I took the starter gen apart and the brushes were half normal size so I ordered new brushes for it.
I can update the thread when I re-install the starter gen.

Voltage at battery posts when running 3/4 throttle was about 12.3 v after running a few minutes. It had more voltage than that when the engine was started. (hooked to car battery, not the tiny tractor battery).


Thanks for the replies.

Danford1

Last edited by danford1; 10-21-2019 at 02:41 AM.
danford1 is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 10-24-2019, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 20
Re: Help me understand the wiring - voltage regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhildret View Post
When the engine is running at 3/4 throttle, what is the voltage at the battery posts?


This is the correct regulator for your application the first one worked probably 35 years, so trying to convert to electronic seems to be an interesting path with unknown benefit.


https://salempwr.com/435-040-voltage-regulator-briggs-stratton-295924/



Brian

Hi Guys.
Here is an update.
I got new brushes and installed them. No change. Still puts out 15v but isn't charging the battery.
I bought a 435-040 regulator as instructed. I had high hopes of it working, but, of course, it didn't.
I hooked up new regulator and started the tractor. I checked the gen output at 1.6 v... What? it used to output 15v... I installed old regulator and the gen again put out 15v but wouldn't charge battery. Hmmmm, that got me thinking. I unhooked field wire from the old regulator and got 1.6v output again. That means the new regulator must be wired differently inside or something.
I took the covers off both regulators and compared them. They DO seem to be wired differently. On the old one there is a small coil inside a large coil on the left side or load side of the regulator. On the 435-040 it is on the right side coil. So they are wired differently. The 435-040 won't work for me. It is also about 2 times as big physically as the old one.
So then I installed the old one and started it, revved it up 3/4 throttle and checked output, still 15v then I manually pushed down on the solenoid points and the battery started to charge. That confirmed my regulator is bad. On close inspection one of the tiny magnet wires is broken.
So now I need to search for the correct regulator for my tractor as the Briggs one won't work.
Cheers
Danford1
danford1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome