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post #1 of 22 Old 07-07-2019, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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FEL for a 444

I have access to a Kwikway loader with a Gravely that needs work....it is at a decent price...a thousand dollars...anyone know how difficult it would be to use that kwik way on a 444?
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post #2 of 22 Old 07-07-2019, 08:36 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

My dad had a 444, we found the hydraulic driven tiller was of little value. As soon as it had to dig the drive would stall because they shared oil. The tractor worked great for mowing. Likely the same scenario with a loader
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post #3 of 22 Old 07-07-2019, 09:53 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

If the 444 does not have the capacity, and I believe this to be a real possibility, you would need to drive a pump/reservoir set up off the engine. As far as fitment, I think a 444 is definitely solid enough, you should be able to make it work with a little thought & planning put into it first.
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post #4 of 22 Old 07-08-2019, 09:38 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyM View Post
My dad had a 444, we found the hydraulic driven tiller was of little value. As soon as it had to dig the drive would stall because they shared oil. The tractor worked great for mowing. Likely the same scenario with a loader

I do not think that what you experienced is not true. But, it is totally not the typical case. The Case tractor and tiller combination are quite possibly the best ever created other than those driven off a standard rear PTO shaft on bigger tractors. The hydraulic drive of the tiller and the wheels is normally not an issue at all. There are many things that can cause a lack of performance though.

As for the original question, people do it. Would I do it? No. If it was not a factory option, then it is not designed for it.
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post #5 of 22 Old 07-08-2019, 10:38 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

I have seen people put loaders on the 44x tractors and make it work. Usually with the loader on you're not going to use the mid lift for a mower deck, so people use that 'circuit' of the system to run the loader. If I recall on person has the lift circuit forced into the raise position and then plumbed that to a joystick valve to run the loader.

For example this person built the entire loader: https://casecoltingersoll.com/showth...d-Loader-Build

I run a Case 646 loader tractor because its specifically built as a loader, (https://casecoltingersoll.com/images...se600lrb05.jpg) there was apparently some design input from the people that created the "Construction King" backhoe - loaders. My experience as a farm kid was always seeing these poor broken down farm tractors that someone had put a 3rd party loader on, and just trashed the front axle, and front wheels. The 44x will be similar. Yes, it does have a cast STEEL front axle, but the spindles are only 5/8 or 3/4 shafts the front wheel spindles in a 64x are 1 1/4 hardened steel and they use 1500 pound capable boat trailer tapered roller bearings and hubs.. My 646 as 6 ply front tires on it to handle the loads..

https://casecoltingersoll.com/showth...le-LOADER-(646)

1973 Case 646 (w/Custom Power Steering)
1968 Case 155
1958 JI Case 310 Terratrac Crawler Loader
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post #6 of 22 Old 07-08-2019, 10:50 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Hmm, Roy, your description really makes me wonder what the issue was with your dad's setup. Because on a Case tractor with the tiller, the hydraulic fluid actually passes THROUGH the tiller and then continues on to the drive wheels. Its not a Parallel circuit, they're in series, all of the oil from the tiller passes through the main Travel Control Valve (TCV) before it can return to the tank.

I have a 41 inch tiller on my 646 and the thing will dig like mad, Tree roots or not.. I need to turn all of the tines around so I can run the tiller counter rotating to the direction of travel.

Right now with the tines in forward, even with 320 pounds of wheel wheels and 220 pounds of ballast in the tires, the tiller can pick the entire rear end of my 646 up and push me forward.

There are LOTS of people that run 44x tractors with tillers and they work well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyM View Post
My dad had a 444, we found the hydraulic driven tiller was of little value. As soon as it had to dig the drive would stall because they shared oil. The tractor worked great for mowing. Likely the same scenario with a loader

1973 Case 646 (w/Custom Power Steering)
1968 Case 155
1958 JI Case 310 Terratrac Crawler Loader
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post #7 of 22 Old 07-08-2019, 12:35 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

It was a new unit, he was trying to till hard pan clay that had been previously worked. He had to feather the lift so the tractor would move forward, ended up breaking with the old jump tiller then cultivating with the tractor. He wasn't happy.
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post #8 of 22 Old 07-08-2019, 09:37 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMINIT View Post
If the 444 does not have the capacity, and I believe this to be a real possibility, you would need to drive a pump/reservoir set up off the engine. As far as fitment, I think a 444 is definitely solid enough, you should be able to make it work with a little thought & planning put into it first.
Jeff
I have short frame 446 with a loader. You do not want to have a separate pump for the loader it will use to many Hp and take away from your engine Hp. If you install a travel control valve with the power beyond hook up it will be much better. there is a travel control valve the can be adapted, it will look and work just like a power beyond valve. I can do the conversion for you. With that valve you tractor will be more use full and there will not be so much power loss
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-09-2019, 12:31 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Paul View Post
I have short frame 446 with a loader. You do not want to have a separate pump for the loader it will use to many Hp and take away from your engine Hp. If you install a travel control valve with the power beyond hook up it will be much better. there is a travel control valve the can be adapted, it will look and work just like a power beyond valve. I can do the conversion for you. With that valve you tractor will be more use full and there will not be so much power loss
What power loss? If the loader is not actually doing work, the pump is not using any significant horsepower. It may be spining at speed and moving fluid commensurate with that rpm, but there is no horsepower robbing pressure involved. If the tractor is doing loader work, the tractor can only use, maybe, up to 6-8 hp, and the pump a maximum of 6 hp for 5-6 seconds, if the payload involved is close to a ton. For a more normal payload of 500 lb, the pump demand is less than 2 hp for the duration of the lift.

I have used the starter motor to turn the engine, hydro charge pump, hydro, and the auxiliary pump for the loader while lifting the front of the tractor off of the ground with the loader for service work when the engine wouldn't start. That's over 700 lb being lifted by the loader plus all the other work.

A starter motor drawing 150 amps makes about 2.5 hp.

Bob

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post #10 of 22 Old 07-10-2019, 09:46 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Mark (li), a 'power beyond' setup is exactly how Case used the loaders on the 64x loader tractors and it works really well. In many ways the loader can get all of the oil flow from the pump, which makes the loader operate quickly. Depending on the age of your tractor it could be producing 8 to 9 Gallons of oil per minute (at Wide open 3600 rpm).

I've had a chance to use a friends Case - Ingersoll 6020 that uses a second pump (The 'ingy' 60xx and 7020 have a dual pump configuration) to drive the loader separately from the travel. The secondary section of the pump puts out 4.8 GMP (displacement .329 Cu Inch) and what I find is that my loader on my 646 operates much quicker than the 6020 does because when I'm not moving the loader is getting 8 to 9 gallons per minute. Granted with one pump, if I am pushing the loader into a pile and sending 90%+ of the oil to the travel, the loader does not have too much to work with.. But the typical use is you push into the pile, spin out, stop pushing and then lift and curl the bucket, which the loader does quickly with nearly 100% of the oil.

So if you can come up with a Main valve with power beyond, which where ONLY used on the 64x loader tractors (hen's teeth basically) that's the way to go. Having paul make one could be a good solution as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Paul View Post
If you install a travel control valve with the power beyond hook up it will be much better. there is a travel control valve the can be adapted, it will look and work just like a power beyond valve. I can do the conversion for you. With that valve you tractor will be more use full and there will not be so much power loss

1973 Case 646 (w/Custom Power Steering)
1968 Case 155
1958 JI Case 310 Terratrac Crawler Loader
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post #11 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 05:50 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

The 0.329 cid pump is a bit on the small side for the 2x18 cylinders on a Kwik Way loader. That's why you found the loader slow on the 6020. A pump with a 0.39 cid is more appropriate and will not require WOT operation for good speed.

Bob

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post #12 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Well, a Parker D14 Pump which is .329 cu in is what the OEM - Ingersoll Tractors put into the machines, From the model 6018 -> 7020, I believe all of them used the same dual pump.

The 644, 646, 648 models all used a power beyond port off the main control valve so the loader would get from 8 - 10 GPM. My 646 has a .73 pump on it, but that also runs through a 1.5 GPM Priority Divider valve to supply the power steering I added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TUDOR View Post
The 0.329 cid pump is a bit on the small side for the 2x18 cylinders on a Kwik Way loader.

1973 Case 646 (w/Custom Power Steering)
1968 Case 155
1958 JI Case 310 Terratrac Crawler Loader
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post #13 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 01:19 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Anyone else realize the original poster of this thread has but the first post and nothing else.

Bottom line is you can do whatever you want for modifications to a tractor. It is nearly impossible to match what was done by a manufacturer from the ground up, though.

The Case and Ingersoll garden tractors are tough. But, not loader tough. Consider this; there are many front axles that are bent as well as spindles, just due to owner mistakes or abuse.
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post #14 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 07:48 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

Quote:
Originally Posted by sddunt View Post
Well, a Parker D14 Pump which is .329 cu in is what the OEM - Ingersoll Tractors put into the machines, From the model 6018 -> 7020, I believe all of them used the same dual pump.

The 644, 646, 648 models all used a power beyond port off the main control valve so the loader would get from 8 - 10 GPM. My 646 has a .73 pump on it, but that also runs through a 1.5 GPM Priority Divider valve to supply the power steering I added.
That may be so, but, as you noted, loader speed will be slow even at WOT. The larger pump allows a lower throttle setting for better fuel economy and the same speed, and the speed can be adjusted up or down from that point as circumstances allow.

You do realize that it only takes 2-6 hp to run a loader hydraulic system for the few seconds needed to raise the bucket with a max payload, not 12-25 hp. The tractor doesn't require much more than the same before the rear wheels break traction. The only things gained with a big engine in a loader are bigger fuel bills and faster acceleration. Top speed is the same.

The 646 also had larger cylinders and could handle the extra flow without causing over controlling issues.

Bob

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post #15 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: FEL for a 444

Thank you to all for information and an interesting discussion ...but I wound up getting the Wheel Horse with an Ark 500 loader...I may go back to the Kwik Way and CASE in the future as a project ...but right now I am cleaning this tractor up..it needed some work
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