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post #16 of 23 Old 07-11-2019, 11:02 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

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Originally Posted by TUDOR View Post
That may be so, but, as you noted, loader speed will be slow even at WOT. The larger pump allows a lower throttle setting for better fuel economy and the same speed, and the speed can be adjusted up or down from that point as circumstances allow.

You do realize that it only takes 2-6 hp to run a loader hydraulic system for the few seconds needed to raise the bucket with a max payload, not 12-25 hp. The tractor doesn't require much more than the same before the rear wheels break traction. The only things gained with a big engine in a loader are bigger fuel bills and faster acceleration. Top speed is the same.

The 646 also had larger cylinders and could handle the extra flow without causing over controlling issues.
Tudor
Keep in mind we are talking about tractor that are classified as lawn tractors. Lets say and go in the middle of your quoted horsepower usage of a hydraulic pump a model 444 is a 14 Hp motor a power loss of 3 hp is a lot. Mine is a 16Hp and it is very much noticeable when the 2nd pump is in use. That's why I chose to use the travel valve with the power beyond option.
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post #17 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: FEL for a 444

OK another question ...I believe the previous owner used ATF when he added fluid...since I am changing all the hoses...should I drain it and just replace the fluid with Hydraulic fluid?...will it cause a problem if the fluids are mixed?
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post #18 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 01:06 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

If the tractor's hydraulic system has a hydraulic MOTOR - Geo Rotor motor in the system (Case Garden tractors) then you should use MOTOR OIL in the system.

If its just a pump, control valve and cylinders, then "universal tractor hydraulic fluid" is perfect to run in it.

1973 Case 646 (w/Custom Power Steering)
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1958 JI Case 310 Terratrac Crawler Loader
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 09:32 PM
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Re: FEL for a 444

I would not use any type of fluid that is classified as hydraulic fluid. Rotella 15w40 is to be used. Now I have a 448 that is setup for snow blowing only I had to go to 5w40 because I was popping hoses do to the extreme cold.
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post #20 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 11:30 PM
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There’s nothing special about the CASE hydraulic system. Gear pump, manual shift valve, and a G-rotor. If the oil isn’t full of water or particulate contamination it will run fine. Car engine oil has more additives than hydraulic oil; like detergents, it should be more expensive but isn’t because of sales volume and consumer pressure. If the tractor will run in cold weather, ATF is better as it has a better viscosity index. Synthetic is better still. You can tell the difference when cranking in winter conditions. I use AW46 hydraulic oil in all my CASE tractors because I get it for free, but I buy ATF for the tractors with hydrastats so they don’t cavitation in cold weather.

Girls with large lawns like a guy with a really big deck!
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post #21 of 23 Old 07-13-2019, 03:44 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

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Originally Posted by G.Paul View Post
I would not use any type of fluid that is classified as hydraulic fluid. Rotella 15w40 is to be used. Now I have a 448 that is setup for snow blowing only I had to go to 5w40 because I was popping hoses do to the extreme cold.
Motor oil, ATF, AW46, Rotella 15w40, vegetable oil, and water are all hydraulic fluids when used in a hydraulic system.

The root of the word hydraulic is the classical Greek word for water . . . hydor.

The hydro in my GT and the separate loader hydraulic system both use Dexron ATF and have for the past 22 years of service life. Never popped a hose, even at -30į F.

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post #22 of 23 Old 07-13-2019, 04:21 AM
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Re: FEL for a 444

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Originally Posted by G.Paul View Post
Tudor
Keep in mind we are talking about tractor that are classified as lawn tractors. Lets say and go in the middle of your quoted horsepower usage of a hydraulic pump a model 444 is a 14 Hp motor a power loss of 3 hp is a lot. Mine is a 16Hp and it is very much noticeable when the 2nd pump is in use. That's why I chose to use the travel valve with the power beyond option.
The loader pump for the loader on my 12 hp GT had a relief setting of 1500 psi and could flow almost 6 gpm at WOT. That is just about 6 hp. At that pressure, the loader could theoretically lift over a ton. Since the tractor and all of it's ballast wasn't heavy enough to counter that kind of load, the pump never saw that pressure except at end of stroke.

Since the loader could raise the bucket a foot in a bit over 1 second, horsepower demands on the engine were miniscule and it rarely slowed down until the cylinders reached end of stroke, and then only long enough for me to release the control. The little 12 hp never slowed down even when scraping up the side of a pile of dirt while pushing hard enough to break traction, and I only ran it at 2/3 throttle.

The Case tractors use a hydraulic drive where the pump flows at max for the engine rpm and that takes extra horsepower as soon as the tractor starts moving compared to the same requirements for a hydro.

Don't blame the second pump for sucking up the extra horsepower when it's the primary pump's fault.

Bob

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post #23 of 23 Old 09-23-2019, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Paul View Post
I have short frame 446 with a loader. You do not want to have a separate pump for the loader it will use to many Hp and take away from your engine Hp. If you install a travel control valve with the power beyond hook up it will be much better. there is a travel control valve the can be adapted, it will look and work just like a power beyond valve. I can do the conversion for you. With that valve you tractor will be more use full and there will not be so much power loss
I shot you a private message. Looking for more info on this!

Shawn
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