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Why not just get 4WD and forgetaboutit?

4K views 42 replies 20 participants last post by  Jere39 
#1 ·
I constantly see threads regarding those struggling with traction issues whether it be in snow or steep slopes. I have had a few garden tractors and the small ones truly struggled with the slopes I have. After tipping one over and another twice I decided life is more precious than that and went to large ones with 4WD and have never come close since then many years ago. BTW, the "whirling blades of death" do not stop instantly while you are turning over no matter what kind of seat switch there is.

Often many think the issue is going UP slopes when a more serious condition is going DOWN slopes as when it get very dry or wet a conventional rear end will skid one wheel and free wheel the other. At that point you had better point the nose in direction gravity is taking you and hold on for the out of control ride. Granted this is a thrill but a fairly hazardous one at that.

The mechanical front wheel drive, MFWD work excellent but will tear up grass when turning short while going downhill with the outside tire. I have just discovered that the hydro 4WD of the 7xx series is just 2nd to none. Both will easily back up the steepest slopes without spinning a tire.

The whole point of this is to emphasize the inherent risk of small machines on steep slopes.

This really doesn't show the steepness.
 

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#3 ·
I love my 4WD X585. I have been using a 332, which is semi-retired now, and even it with its weight is a little hard to handle going across a steep slope on the ditches. Mostly would start to slide down a bit.
On the X585 I just engage the 4WD and step on the diff lock and it is as solid as a mountain goat!

Tearing the turf isn't much of an issue either. Mostly just plan turns a little wider or more gentle or the 3-point turn and no problem but then again if it tears it a bit I don't care.
Mostly only use the 4WD for the hills and when there are wet areas.
 
#4 ·
The pictures do show quite well the slope involved. Looks nice.

4WD is not the solution though in many applications. Traction is much more dependent upon where and how the actual contact is made with the ground. The standard turf tyres that come with all tractors, regardless of manufacturer, are just great for dry, level, flat and smooth lawns like those in much of suburbia and other developed areas. It is when you deviate from any of those conditions that one discovers the failings of turf tyres.
What many have done is gone to the aftermarket and gotten ATV style tyres where traction for many types of conditions are almost standard. Sadly, the manufacturers have not provided these tyres even as options. You put something like an Ocelot, Bearclaw or even the chevron ag lugged tyres on a 2WD tractor and you don't need 4WD.
The tyre pressures are much lower and the materials used are softer so they don't tear up the ground, yet still remain useful for many years.

One can spend the thousands of dollars for a 4WD tractor or spend less than two hundred dollars for a pair of ATV style tyres. Which is the better choice?
 
#5 ·
The HDAP tires do seem like quite an improvement over the turf type tire. :tango_face_smile:
 
#6 ·
While the HDAP tires can be a viable solution, there are many more in the ATV style. It really all boils down to what your local conditions are. I have had nothing but difficulty with turf tyres on my property here in northern Florida. Sliding, no traction, yes, we have hills here.:tango_face_grin:
 
#7 ·
Surprisingly enough, turf tires work very well in the snow. With a 4WD machine, (JD 2305) there is no needs for any kind of weights or chains when operating the 47" snowblower it just goes. Of course this weighs almost triple what the GT's do.:tango_face_smile:
 

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#8 ·
Snow? What is that? :sidelaugh
 
#10 ·
Thanks for sharing. I noticed an improvement sideways on slopes with a wider wheel base on my 400 vs the G100.

BTW, nice firewood piles. I see you like to play with your saws too...
 
#16 ·
Yeah, I put a fair amount on time on the saws. Generally burn at least 15 gallons Winter and sometimes close to 20 in the saws. But the big saws hold a quart and make pretty quick work of a gallon.:tango_face_wink:
 
#11 ·
I know this is a JD thread, but i put snow chains on my 2wd gt18 craftsman and deflate the tires just a bit to soften the ride and i have been up places so steep that it would feel like youre driving to the sky. I also for summer fill the tires up with water and it runs and pulls like a champ.

Chains work in my case because i don't mind tearing up the grass though...
 
#13 ·
I'd love to try 4WD. I got my little 2WD LT stuck yesterday, trying to pull a trailer of dirt up to where I needed it. Of course, it just has turfs, because usually this isn't an issue.

I've read about the other types of tires, and adding weight, etc. Everything comes with pros/cons, of course.

4WD vs tires vs weights feels a bit like the car discussions of "no replacement for displacement". There's the argument that, for instance, you can use a turbo, and make the same power from a smaller-displacement engine. Like putting better tires on the machine, or adding weight, in this scenario.

But anything that can be done to improve traction with 2WD, of course, can *also* be done to the 4WD, and it will do even better. So at least for "extreme" cases, the person with 4WD could still go to ATV tires, and add weights, for even more grip. They're starting off with an advantage, and could still use the same methods to improve it as-needed.

At least for me, I couldn't justify 4WD. But if I upgraded to a GT, and still had traction issues, I'd certainly take a look at upgraded tires, and maybe some weights. A big improvement for a few hundred dollars would be easier to swallow, and would probably do what I needed.
 
#14 ·
With a 2wd tractor it's hard to equal the performance of a 4wd version with at least decent tires. Granted, there is a cross-over point between the two depending on the tires you run, but that would be like having the worse turf tires on the 4wd and the best/most aggressive tires on the 2wd and probably also extra weight and maybe diff lock. A friend lives on a some very hilly property and has used several bigger 2wd garden tractors with loaded 26" Chevron/ag tires on them and still had a few scary moments (mostly sliding downhill with the rear tires locked up) and got stuck a few times. He never had these problems on a 4wd version garden tractor even with the much less aggressive HDAP style tires and no additional weight. Granted the HDAP are much better than turfs, and would have been interested to review a 4wd with turfs and see his thoughts.

With that said you can make a huge difference in the capability of a 2wd machine with tires and weight. My 425 had chevron/ag tires (and of course diff-lock) when I got it. It did decent but I could get it spinning on a hill or ditch without a lot of effort, especially when trying to back up a grade. I then loaded the rear tires which made a noticable difference but still a few places you had to watch out for. There is one big ridge along my back property that I could go up while traveling forward, but could not back up. I then switched to 26" semi-aggressive ATV tires (half way between HDAP and ag tires) and loaded them (more total weight as compared to the 23's). It can now back up the ridge without spinning a tire, even if the grass is wet. I've actually ran out of "power" in reverse before losing traction. I do have the extended reverse pedal that allows more engagement, but it's not as much "power" as you can get going forward. Speaking of tires and traction, I don't always think the most aggressive tread pattern is the best for grass and hard pack. Typical tractor tread/chevron/ag tires are really meant to be able to dig into soft and loose soils. On grass and hardpack there is really nothing to bite into, so less aggressive tires actually grip better. Kinda' like running on ice as super aggressive tires don't do very well but tires with more rubber (less aggressive lugs) do better.
 
#17 ·
We can discus this till the cows come home and still solve nothing. Everyone will have their reasons for or against and we have not even gotten into track machines. The simple truth is most simple do not need 4 wheel drive and many that buy them never learn how to operate them just as with 2 wheel drive. The traction will be were the load is unless it in a front end loader. Even then 4 wheel drive will not save you.
Just to make a point the neighbor got his four wheel drive pickup stuck last winter. One wheel on each end would spin and he just sat there. My two wheel drive dually had no problems driving around him with highway tread verses his knobby. I guess my four wheel drive worked and his did not. So for those that think four wheel drive is a save all forget it.
 
#19 ·
We can discus this till the cows come home and still solve nothing. Everyone will have their reasons for or against and we have not even gotten into track machines. The simple truth is most simple do not need 4 wheel drive and many that buy them never learn how to operate them just as with 2 wheel drive.
Well stated.

For many of us, 4-wheel drive adds unnecessary cost, complexity, and weight for something we'll never need.
 
#18 ·
Nothing saves all. But many things can save some.

I've pulled others out with my tractor several times, and I've needed to be pulled out a few times too.
But I do a lot of work and go into places I wouldn't without the 4wd, even just mowing / brush cutting.

If I want to never get stuck, all I have to do is never operate in slippery areas.
 
#21 ·
I have a slopped yard that I turn on all the time. I've been running a 314 with turf tires for years but I have 80# hanging on the back with chains I don't take off after the winter and snowblower mode. I ran a 140 sideways on a run off swail at my first house with no problems you just need to scoot your butt to the high side of the seat. :tango_face_wink:

Just acquired a 332 with turf tires and no weight on the back and I don't spin much at all. I would love to get a pair of HDAPs for it and load them but I have better things to do with $200. I'll chunk chains on it and attach the snow blower and be done. :tango_face_grin:

The thing is with a 4x4 (trucks, cars, tractors) people tend to "believe" they are "invincible" and never think about what they are getting into. :tango_face_crying:I have 4x4 trucks SUVs but run them in 2wd until I need 4x4. :tango_face_devil:
 
#22 ·
I find this a weird argument; don't have a capability because you might think you have a bigger capability.
If you're not smart enough to use a vehicle without getting stuck, you'll get stuck, even if it has tracks.

I definitely fall into this category; and I'm sure if I had 2wd I'd also get stuck.
But more often.

4wd is also great for steering sometimes, like when dragging a brush cutter or plowing, even when the rear traction will keep you moving.

If you just use your tractor to mow your lawn and don't get stuck, that's great too.
 
#23 ·
Comparing apples to apples, a X495 weighs 1000 lbs and a X595 1080 lbs. I'm not losing any sleep over the 80 lbs and run it in 2WD 95+% of the time even pushing snow which we get our fair share of. I'm not sure how much extra I paid for it on a 15 yo machine but whatever it was and the 80 lbs are worth every penny/lb for that 5% of the time. The X300 seems to get the lawn mowed just fine without it though.
 
#24 ·
Some of this argument comes down to a 4wd version having more capability or letting you get work done faster or easier. It's not that a 2wd can't get the job done, it's just that having 4wd might do it better. Only part of the advantage of 4wd is about not getting stuck in the mud or snow. The biggest advantage in my opinion, that if used correctly, a 4wd can simply get more work done in some situations because it can put more power to the ground. There is a reason most farm tractors and backhoes (tractor with a front end loader and backhoe) are now 4wd, and it's not so you can kick it into 4wd only when you get stuck in mud. You use 4wd whenever you are working the equipment as it puts more power to the ground and limits tire slippage.

Now I won't argue that many people don't need a 4wd version lawn mower as the extra capability is not needed....if you have a flat lawn with no wet spots it doesn't really gain you anything.
 
#26 ·
I'll answer each point:

#1. The two spots in question, the first if you look closely is not a bare spot but a stump I cut off at ground level so I could mow over the top. The 2nd is from my wife Hundreds and Hundreds of pounds of sunflower seeds and assorted other bird seed in her bird feeders. The turkeys come and scratch and the grass does not grow there.

#2. Golf clubs don't have to be expensive, but they do have to fit the player. My clubs are: M3 Taylor made driver, (new last week). Taylor made Rocket balz 3 wood, (very old). Titleist hybrids, 19,26 & 27 degreee. Titleist Vokey wedges 56 & 60 degree. But the irons are clones I had built and they are certainly good enough for my handicap. I am a 7 right now trending to 6 which sucks because I have to give the whining crybabies at the course strokes. Just got back from the battle a half hour ago. Got them for a few bucks today and surprisingly enough, that makes me happy.:tango_face_angel:
 
#27 ·
I have to say it. Kinda hard to get 4 wheel drive on my tractors when they only have 2 wheels ? yea I know I'm in the wrong forum.
 
#30 ·
Cool. I've been curious about left/right brakes, for helping with this sort of thing. They seem like maybe a simpler solution than trying to implement a locking differential in a transaxle, or than 4WD. And, of course, they could help with the scary situation of an open differential, and a single locked rear wheel, in a runaway-down-the-hill scenario. And, unlike a locked diff, the machine would still be easy to turn.

But they've made me curious, do you kind of need the "proper" touch to make them effective? Say you spin your right wheel, and the left one just sits there. You want to apply some brake to the right wheel, to transfer torque to the left. But *too* much right brake, and you just swap your problem, so the right wheel presumably stops, and you spin the left, instead. Do you just kind of ease onto the brake for the spinning wheel, until hopefully you start moving, and both wheels keep turning?
 
#31 ·
I takes some getting use to this the first gravely that I have had with steering brakes. I have usually had a gravely most of my adult life until about 10 years ago my gravely at that time developed major engine problems and my job went away at the same time. So I didn't fix it it was sold . When I got back on my feet in a new job in a new location I could not find a gravely in decent condition, that they didn't think was gold . So I bought a new Grillo g85d with a tiller and mower deck. A few months ago I was going through a tough time with my anxiety and depression issues. I friend called me and said he had something that belonged with me. He gave me a excellent condition Gravely professional 12 it came with a snow blade. I have since acquired a 40 kidney style mower deck I have one strip on the side of my yard that is hairy to mower on a rider just a little pressure on the up hill wheel and it is no problem for the gravely
 
#32 · (Edited)
One good thing all of the manufacturers offer is many different models with many different options to fit many different scenarios.
And it makes the manufacturers create better products in the long run.
I can remember when it was normal to rebuild a v8 with a maybe 150 hp at 100,000 miles. Now 3 - 4 hundred thousand miles on a v6 with 300 hp and 25 mpg and so clean even Cali is by all comparisons nearly smog free. And it is now expected and the normal.
But even they have their fair share of 4X4 trucks. For whatever reason I am sure are justified in their own mind.
Over kill for sure. But an option available if wanted. Most will never get dirt on them and will never ever under any circumstance be run on anything but paved road.
Knowing how to use 2 WD with proper tires / pressure most seasoned off roaders could put even an intermediate driver in a 4X4 to shame. Snow in our part of the world proves this. I would love to see the faces of some of the people who are novices in some of your off road parks in a vehicle with an expert driver.
From the time we moved onto our acreage which is fairly flat I am wwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy more comfortable running my equipment. This past winter we had more snow than ever and is the first year I did not have to fire up another tractor to pull myself out of being stuck. Experience matters apparently.
A couple of years ago I purchased a 4010 with loader and mower. Within a couple of weeks owning it I soon found it was not for our acreage / lifestyle. Too big and heavy for mowing. Rad screen constantly plugged.
Sold it to my neighbor who also has a Z-turn and it fits him exactly.
We got our driveway paved this summer so will need to check out chains and turfs still or lug tires.
Just a side note that it was paved very poorly and has already been repaired by another company. This company works both in the U.S. and Canada. Would i use them again? Not a hope! If you are thinking of asphalt feel free to PM me and i will supply you their name.
When lawn / garden tractors first came out they bear no resemblance to today's models. Tires pretty much same thing. And yet when they were new what a revelation. No 4wd and very few options to improve them. No griping, no complaining, no blogs. Just learn how to use them and what their limitations were.
EM = MC/P (expectation must equal machine capability divided by patience)
I have a customer with a 12 hp tractor who has maintained a very nice 5 acre yard and large garden as well as blowing snow in the winter. She bought the setup new 25 or 30 years ago and has no problems with any of it.
 
#33 ·
I bought a Snapper Pro 52" hydro walkbehind mower, and decided to make it work year round by making up a 54" plow attachment for it. Works great, and I have complete control over the power going to each wheel. It doesn't have enough weight to do angled plowing in snow that's very deep, but as a snow-pusher (I also made some wings for the plow to hold more snow) it can keep pushing with the plow completely filled and spilling over the top and both sides.

It works so well, I've bought another walkbehind (Husqvarna 52" hydro) and have started making a broom attachment for it.
 
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