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post #1 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Model 25 Johnson Loader

Please bear with me as this is my first new post and just learning. Uploading photos is fun! Let's begin.

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By photos I thought I had a model 27 loader but s/n tag on inside of left mast says it is a model 25 S..... (can't read the rest of the line).

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Material in reference lib does not show 400 series mounts which I would prefer to use as the lower rear hole on the frame will already be used to mount 54C belly mount blade and/or model 33 tiller. That is if these are mounted on a 314 I own.

I would however prefer a 4X5 machine with power steering and foot operated hydrostratic for loader tractor. Foot hydro would then allow right hand to control loader and left hand steering making everything ergonomically correct for me (I am retired JD engineering person).

Questions:
  • Where can I find information to modify mounting to attach to rear axle same as 400 series model 27?
  • Watching YouTube loaders in action loader function cycle times seem slow. Does anyone have published cycle times and/or can they by speeded up to my liking? I understand that pump flow needs to be increased to achieve this and may require a different pump.
  • I bought this loader years ago without a bucket. Can anyone recommend a bucket supplier that sells at reasonable cost? If not Can someone supply me bkt side plate profile dimensions for B269/270 Std duty buckets or B271 matl handling bucket?
  • Would it be more cost effective to sell this loader and buy 4X5 with loader installed?
Attachments show another view of loader and RH mast foot.

Thanks all for your help.
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post #2 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 03:50 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Hydraulic flow is limited to approximately 5.6 - 6 gpm by the 1/4" hoses used. This will generate a full lift in about 5 seconds using 2x18 cylinders. At that speed, overcontrolling becomes an issue and it is possible to bounce the front tires off the ground with the right amount of payload. The flow rate can be adjusted downwards by throttling back the engine. I use 2/3 throttle for most of my work, and throttle down for precision work. Higher throttle settings are used only as I become accustomed to the speed over a period of time each day. You have to be in the groove to run wide open.

I built my bucket as a scaled up version of the smaller bucket that came with my loader. Basic dimensions were 40" wide, 17" tall, and 17" deep. Mine was a round back with a 8.5" radius. The new bucket is 54" W, 22" T, 22" D, with an 11" R. Square buckets would have similar base dimensions and all you need is to decide the end profile. The end plates fit inside of the body of the bucket and both end plates and body are 1/8" plate. Make the body from one piece of steel and have a fabrication shop put the appropriate bends in it.

While time consuming, the mods necessary to install that loader aren't overly expensive. Even adding the cost of a new bucket, you're dollars ahead of purchasing another tractor with a loader. But, from many years of practical experience, foot pedal drive control has it all over hand operated drive control and that is the route that I, personally, would recommend. The added benefit of power steering is not to be sneezed at either.

Bob

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Last edited by TUDOR; 03-28-2014 at 07:09 AM.
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post #3 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 09:15 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

I used to have a 27 loader and if you want to modify this one to mount it on the rear axle then you will not be able to have a mid-mounted deck. It's and either or proposition. The set up you have now potentially could allow that.

I too looked for a bucket supplier once to replace my rusting bucket. All I could find were buckets for skidsteers and they are too heavy in my mind would require modification to mount to the loader. You are better off like Tudor suggested in building your own bucket. If you go to Weekend Freedom Machines and make a post or do a search you will find a couple of individuals who did just that and may share all the dimensions you seek.

While you will save money up front by modifying this loader to fit your needs, for ease of everything (and if you want to stay with JD) I would go find a X series GT that has a loader already. Since you are an engineer it might prove to be an interesting project for you to work on your current setup though.

Also over at Weekend Freedom Machines there is an individual who took a JD 400 and converted it to foot controls so it's possible to do it. It was fairly involved process based on his write up and photos.
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post #4 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 09:48 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

The Johnson Model 25 is a very nice FEL. If you can make it work, you'll have a good loader.

Here is a supplier of small machine buckets. They indicate that they can even customize some of the dimensions: Budget Buckets Small Machine

Here is grandpajay's thread where he added foot control to his JD 400, as well as a joystick!

Foot Control JD 400

H5 Joystick Control JD 400

I've attached some specs for the Johnson loaders, including the Model 25.
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SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #5 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 09:58 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Re-reading your post, it sounds like you have a 314 JD, not a 400?

Also, I am guessing that this Model 25 was configured for a non-JD machine, since the valve control is mounted to the right-hand upright. JD used right-hand hydro controls, so the loader valve was always mounted to the left-hand upright.

It won't be as good as foot-control machine, but if you could switch the valve to the other upright, you would improve the ergonomics for hand-operated hydro control on a JD.




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #6 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Thanks for your feedback guys. Being a novice member I need to complete my introduction and present my goal with this machine(s). I have been “Gabby” since high school so feel free to call me Gabby. I don’t answer people who use my given name.

I am not overly educated as I may come across. I worked in engineering, but am not an engineer. Most of the time when adding 2 & 2 I get 4. I worked in test and evaluation with primary responsibility to test prototype construction equipment and work with engineering to get equipment ready for market. My engineering experience put me on the seat of machines often. My questions will seem extravagant as I am used to machines with features like return-to-dig, auto-level, traction control, etc. These would be great features in garden tractors but couldn’t sell many “$40-50K lawn mowers”.

My goal with this machine is a landscape machine. Snow removal will come in another thread. Manufacturers have done fantastic job with lawn mowers and except for maybe a how “does this work” question won’t get into mowers much.

Last important fact is I am a single person and do not require “permission”. I tell my sons (2) all I’m doing is spending their inheritance like my father is doing with my inheritance.

Toys in the garage (I’m not against expanding this list)
• X300 with mower deck, bagger, and 2 stage snowblower
• JD 185 w/46” powerflow bagger and single stage snowthrower (for sale next spring as it is my winter machine this year)
• Bare 314 – have H2 components, rear hyd plumbing, and dual brake pedals to update this machine
• Zen-noh B7001 – 3 cylinder Yanmar diesel with 3ph (w/ rear blade) and tiller. Unit is std trans with 4wd and diff lock. Person who sold me tractor later sold me the Model 25 loader to install on this machine. This machine will probably go up for sale as soon as I have my loader tractor up and running.
• TX model Gator.
• Deere JS63 self propelled walk-behind.
• Random “stuff” – Cab off a 430 (Sorry Nole, I didn’t mean to drool all over your machine), model 25 loader, model 33 tiller with 2 pto shafts, 45” Craftsman? 2 stage snowblower that was mounted on a Deere 445, and 54C blade.
• Wish list – Deere 455 for loader tractor, model 49 snowthrower for 314, maybe a 300/316/317/318 or three and a warehouse to store all these. I definitely subscribe to the theory that I should be able to open the door and go to work without having to spend time taking this attachment off and putting that one on.

Time to get down to business, response to feedback:

Hydraulic speed - to be correct bucket rollback/dump speed is what seemed slow and/or operators were not well versed in multi-function operation. That is boom and bucket need to work simultaneously with machine movement for smooth operation. Will 5.6 – 6 gpm support multifunctioning? Am I asking for too much function and precision (spool leakage) from a $100 control valve?

Machine is going to be landscaping machine not a mower so losing mid-mount deck is not an issue (to me). I want loader and 54C blade on same machine. On the rear, either a tiller or 3ph for ?.

Bucket – I see excellent feedback I need to investigate to make decision on buy or manufacture my own. Can a quick-tach system be incorporated to switch buckets to a blade? Problem with blade on a loader is rigidity in loader boom? Pallet forks on loader or do I use 300/316/37/318 for a forklift machine? I found a set of plans to build a forklift.

Convert machine to 400 hydro – I will need to investigate. Would love a 430 but cost of 400/420/430 units is nearly same as a 455 on CL. For speed of completion I am leaning on looking for 455 machine … drawback is adapting 54C blade to this machine. Blade framework is strong enough for 455 but pivot will probably need some beefing up.

H5 hydraulic system sounds great. One actuator for each finger. I will read up and this. I suspect it is not based on tractor charge pump system due to volume of oil required to support 5 functions. It is common for rocker switches to control quick-tach functions (not needed on main control valve).

Summary

1. Will 5 – 6 gpm support multi-functioning and still provide acceptable metering characteristics?
2. Recommend or disapprove of quick-tach to incorporate blade on loader?
3. Recommend or disapprove using loader w/pallet forks as forklift? Asking this due to precise control of loader functions (the S word).
4. Will probably manufacture bucket unless I can find one at reasonable purchase/shipping cost.
5. Convert machine to foot control probably will not happen but sounds like interesting reading.
6. H5 system. Loader needs two with float; could be controlled with 1 actuator. Same with 54C, 2 functions with 1 float & 1 actuator. 3ph up and down. Yep, H5 sounds right. Also, RH loader control is ergonomically correct for me. Hardest machine for me to operate is skidsteer, I cannot think with my feet.

Time to hit the garage … Thanks again guys for your feedback.
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post #7 of 20 Old 01-09-2014, 03:04 PM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Understand that these small machines have an open center hydraulic system unlike the large machines with variable displacement pumps and a closed center system where the sytem is constantly pressurized. Multi function of controls is limited severely.

The 5-6 gpm is to suit normal operating speed for consumers and the 1/4" hose size utilized on these loaders. Too much flow results in turbulence within the components resulting in less than optimum performance, and a little heat generation just to spice things up.

Quick-tach is an excellent idea (wish I had it), as are a set of forks. For precision, slow the engine which will slow the flow.

The base line components in a GT hydraulic system will never match the expensive and more precise components in the commercial equipment. Forget about multi tasking and precision unless you have really deep pockets. You also have to remember that these machines rarely weigh much more than a ton and can bounce quite easily.

Bob

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post #8 of 20 Old 01-10-2014, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

I need to review the information provided me before I make a decision how to proceed.

I understand what you are saying about hyd components in GT machines however I need to build a unit I will be happy with. I will not be satisfied with a hand hydro control machine nor will I be satisfied with sluggish hydraulic system. I think my next step is to obtain tractor begin prototype build.

Anyone know of a good deal on a 455? I may consider 425/445.
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post #9 of 20 Old 01-10-2014, 09:33 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

That schematic shows a subframe arrangement (and other components) for the Brantly loader, which had an optional power steering kit too. Those Branlty loaders are very nice, but HEAVY!

The subframe for the Brantly shown in your schematic above is very similar to the subframe used for my Johnson Model 12 FEL. Mine is not compatible with the mower deck or mid-mount grader blade. The later subframe used on the Model 12A is compatible with the deck and grader blade, so that may be worth studying.

I had to make some modifications to get the subframe to fit my 140 properly (it was designed for an earlier 140 with a different transaxle.) In case it gives you any ideas, you can see many photos of the subframe and how it attaches here:

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...7&postcount=13

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...5&postcount=42

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...5&postcount=43

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...5&postcount=44

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...&postcount=178

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...&postcount=179

https://www.mytractorforum.com/showpo...&postcount=195




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #10 of 20 Old 01-10-2014, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

This attachment came from Johnson 27 shown mounted on a 317. Manual is in ref lib. This mount appears to be easiest to duplicate as it can be done with angle iron and flat plates. I see how you attached to frame using mounting holes I would need to mount blade, I may not be able to mount blade and loader on same machine.

Occasionally I see 400 series mount advertised on Ebay but asking price is $800 range. That is more than I paid for loader. The other issue I'm battling is will this loader adapt to a 455? Biggest issue is pump mount?

Another issue with my "I want machine" is the 54C blade mount height and the blade pitch adjustments. Tractors I am looking at will have larger rear tires thus higher mounting hgt. Will the blade pitch adjustment still be adequate mounted at this height. This is why I need to tractor to continue design work. I am still comptemplating selling loader and buying tractor with loader mounted. CL in central Iowa currently has loader for $2500 and tractors can be found approx $4500. For sake of getting it done I may go that route.
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post #11 of 20 Old 01-10-2014, 12:50 PM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGabby View Post
.. The other issue I'm battling is will this loader adapt to a 455? Biggest issue is pump mount? ..
I don't know whether this Model 25 would fit a 455 -- you'd need to get some measurements. But if you purchase a 455, you wouldn't need to worry about a pump mount because the 455 hydro can provided enough flow to run the loader nicely.

In the end, it may make more sense to buy a tractor/loader combo that you know will function together without a lot of hassle. But if you don't mind a project, I think you could get this one to work well with one of your machines. It just depends what your objectives are. One way to test the waters would be to list the Johnson FEL for sale and see what you can get for it.




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #12 of 20 Old 01-10-2014, 05:22 PM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

[QUOTE=GreenGabby;4519442]This attachment came from Johnson 27 shown mounted on a 317. Manual is in ref lib. This mount appears to be easiest to duplicate as it can be done with angle iron and flat plates. I see how you attached to frame using mounting holes I would need to mount blade, I may not be able to mount blade and loader on same machine..../QUOTE]

Oh, okay. I was thrown by the reference to the Brantly Power Steering. I knew that Brantly offered a kit, but thought it was only for their loaders. apparently Johnson incorporated a hard-mount onto their subframes too. That was smart!

Yes, my subframe is all simple construction from angle iron. If you have fabbing skills it would be easy to replicate.




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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post #13 of 20 Old 01-11-2014, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

I'm comfortable in saying I will be putting loader back into storage for awhile. Priority will be to get 314 with tiller ready for this spring then I will work on my loader tractor. I have pretty much decided to go looking for 455 w/loader. I am undecided if I will be selling loader. For sure 54C is not for sale. I want to play with that.

I reviewed your thread on fabricating mounts and it appears fairly simple. I'm not sure if there is enough clearance under tractor for loader crossmember and belly blade. I still think this would make an awesome landscaping machine. I'll reopen thread when I get started.
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post #14 of 20 Old 03-14-2014, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

Just providing an update. Wrote a check for a Deere 332 today. I am going to mount the loader on this tractor even though not my preference for loader tractor but will do for now.

Two projects ahead of this one. 316 is nearing completion. Then get 54C blade mounted on 314. Then the loader project.
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post #15 of 20 Old 03-14-2014, 07:32 AM
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Re: Model 25 Johnson Loader

I would love to have a 332 for a loader machine. It will still need an auxilliary pump, but it is a solid platform to build on. Congrats! Any photos?




SOLD: 1966 JD 110 Round Fender Integral Sleeve Hitch, Model 42 Blade,

1972 JD 140 H3, 1972 Cozy Cab Model 14 JDX (2nd Ed.), Front-, Mid-, and Rear-PTOs, Model 54/48" 4-Way Blade, Model 48 MMM, 542 Front PTO, 3-Point-Hitch, Heavy-Hitch, a bunch of Model 80 Carts, MTF Dec. 2013 Machine of the Month
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