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post #1 of 41 Unread 07-10-2019, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

I went with my neighbor yesterday to look at an X585 that he did purchase even after finding this issue. The tractor has 700 hours on it and appeared to be well taken care of, all original paint other than a few touched up areas. When testing the bucket out, it seemed to work as it should (comparing it to mine), but it struggled to lift the front tires off the ground, maybe be an inch at most even at full throttle. Checked the fluid level, and it was full. I drove the tractor around his property with some steep inclines, and the tractor never missed a beat, just like driving my X728. When I asked the owner when was the last time he changed the fluid and filter, he hesitated somewhat and said "maybe four years ago ... probably about 200 hours ago", which makes me think it's probably more like 6-7 years and 400 hours ago. He definitely didn't know when he did. Also, when lifting the bucket to full height, (which it does with no problem), there is a very loud high pitch squeal coming from the right side ram and the tranny area when at full height, quiet on the way up. So the question is, could the issue be a somewhat plugged filter and/or bad hydraulic fluid, or more likely something wrong with the hydraulic pump? Any and all thoughts appreciated. Thanks, Rick

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #2 of 41 Unread 07-10-2019, 10:37 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

1st thing to do is a hydro fluid and filter change. Then redo all those test. It is the most simplest of things to try and it may fix the issue.

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post #3 of 41 Unread 07-10-2019, 11:13 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Actually the first thing to do is to curl the bucket to the dump position and then try it again. Many FEL's with the bucket in the flat on the ground position do not have any range left to lift the tractor. Usually an inch or two at most. But with the cutting edge of the bucket pointed straight down it will lift the front off about 6 to 10 inches.
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post #4 of 41 Unread 07-10-2019, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussKish View Post
1st thing to do is a hydro fluid and filter change. Then redo all those test. It is the most simplest of things to try and it may fix the issue.
Yes, he is going to do that, probably did it today. Didn't get home until 4:00 A.M. Thanks Russ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by inspectorudy View Post
Actually the first thing to do is to curl the bucket to the dump position and then try it again. Many FEL's with the bucket in the flat on the ground position do not have any range left to lift the tractor. Usually an inch or two at most. But with the cutting edge of the bucket pointed straight down it will lift the front off about 6 to 10 inches.
Rudy, we tried that too, but still, at best, maybe an inch. And it struggles to get that high, very slow.

One thing I forgot to mention, as we repeat the up/down procedure, it will get the tires off the ground faster, but no higher.

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #5 of 41 Unread 07-10-2019, 11:52 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.

The true test of skill is when you can put something back together and it works... not the dusty half disassembled pile of junk in the corner....

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Former Machines:
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post #6 of 41 Unread 07-11-2019, 01:24 AM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbeef View Post
Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.
This, along with the fluid change.

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post #7 of 41 Unread 07-11-2019, 03:25 AM
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Possible relief valve issue. Debris from a dirty hydraulic system could have gotten caught, possibly holding the valve slightly open. Did you try any tests in the other direction? Lift anything?
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post #8 of 41 Unread 07-11-2019, 06:34 AM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Possibly leaking seals internal to one of the lift arm cylinders. When they start leaking they can leak worse in one direction than the other and as time goes on they eventually leak bad in both directions.

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post #9 of 41 Unread 07-11-2019, 08:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbeef View Post
Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.
According to the PO,just for hauling mulch. The bucket itself, was in excellent condition, not beat up. We will be pulling the fender pan to shim and will double check this relief valve and do a pressure check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz View Post
Possible relief valve issue. Debris from a dirty hydraulic system could have gotten caught, possibly holding the valve slightly open. Did you try any tests in the other direction? Lift anything?
No, didnít think until after we left to have the PO try and lift us (not too far off the ground ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouveau Redneck View Post
Possibly leaking seals internal to one of the lift arm cylinders. When they start leaking they can leak worse in one direction than the other and as time goes on they eventually leak bad in both directions.
Is there any way to check/know this is whatís happening? Maybe thatís why the right side cylinder has a high pitched squeal when itís maxed out in the up position.


Another thing I forgot to mention, is the tractor is a 2002, but unsure of the loader age.

Thanks guys for your insight and suggestions.

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #10 of 41 Unread 07-11-2019, 08:31 AM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick4030 View Post
This, along with the fluid change.

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Test the pressure with an appropriate gauge first.

Quote:
there is a very loud high pitch squeal coming from the right side ram and the tranny area when at full height,
Relief valves squeal when they are dumping fluid at pressure.

Bob

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post #11 of 41 Unread 07-12-2019, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Just an update of what we found today. Changed the hydraulic fluid and filter, but the bucket still operates the same ... won't lift the tires of the ground using the lift control, but ... , using the tilt it will lift with no problem, even at idle. The issue now seems to be with the lift cylinder/cylinders??? I put my pressure gauge on the gray connection (upper right, one of the lift connections) and we had 800 plus PSI (a little on the low side?). Should I have done all four? We also have a leak on that particular quick connect fitting which we think is the male side of the connection (my gauge did not leak), or the o'ring on the female side. Still getting the squeal from the right side tilt cylinder. We have not tried to lift anything at this point, need to fix the leak first.

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #12 of 41 Unread 07-12-2019, 07:13 PM
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Check all four for sure. Problem could be a restriction in the line as well. Also could be a QC fitting that isn't working correctly. Lots of possibilities.
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post #13 of 41 Unread 07-12-2019, 07:18 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

Three things to investigate.

1. Leverage of the cylinders acting against the ground. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

2. Geometry - The angle that the cylinders apply force. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

3. Hydraulics - Force = pressure X Area. (The bucket cylinders are pushing with the maximum piston area exposed to pressure, the arm cylinders are pulling with the lesser piston area exposed to pressure. Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

Added to this is the sizes of the cylinders involved. The older aftermarket loaders had 2" bore cylinders. The newer loaders have 1.5" bore cylinders that have only a bit better than half the force at a given pressure for pushing, and slightly less than that for pulling.

Bottom line, the bucket curl cylinders can apply more pressure to the ground than the lifting arm cylinders before the relief pops.

Bob

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post #14 of 41 Unread 07-12-2019, 08:26 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

At 800 psi there is no chance that machine would ever lift the front end. If the relief valve is not install, install and shim to at least 1,250.

Is the squeal from simple lack of use and grease?

The true test of skill is when you can put something back together and it works... not the dusty half disassembled pile of junk in the corner....

Tractors:
'17 JD 4066R, '08 JD 1445, '07 JD X748, '88 JD 318,'83 JD 214, '74 JD 140, '69 JD 140, 60's Power King, '57 JD 820

The Round Fenders: '67 JD 112H, '67 JD 112H, '67 JD 110H "The Frog", '67 JD 110, '66 JD 110, '65 JD 110, '64 JD 110
Former Machines:
60's Power King, '64 JD 110, '65 JD 110, '65 JD 110, '66 JD 60, '66 JD 110, '66 JD 110, '66 JD 110H, '66 JD 110H, '67 JD 112, '67 JD 112, '69 JD 112, '69 JD 140H3, '69 JD 140H3, '70 JD 112, '72 140 H1, '77 JD 212, '79 JD 212, '80 JD 317, '80 JD 317, '80 JD 317, uk Cushman 898807, '83 JD 318, '84 420, '86 JD 318, '86 JD 420, '87 JD 430, '87 JD 318, '88 JD 318, '88 JD 318, '88 JD 855, '89 JD 318, '90 JD 318, '91 JD 430, uk Cab Cadet 2140, '92 JD 320, '93 JD 320, '96 JD 445, '98 JD 425, '99 JD 3215A, '00 Sabre 2046, '01 JD 455, and '01 LX277


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post #15 of 41 Unread 07-12-2019, 09:18 PM
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My 595 was able to lift the front end at 900 psi stock. Pretty sure it's heavier than a 585. Anyway, the 45 loader uses 1.75" bore cylinders and a 1.13" rod diameter. By my back of the napkin calculation that's about 1.40 in≤ on the retracting piston surface, so at 800 psi that's over 1,100 pounds of force on each cylinder. Should be able to lift it even though it's around a 2:1 reduction at the bucket.

And there's no need to install a relief valve?! They come that way from the factory. You must be thinking about the THRV - but that has nothing at all to do with implement relief, only the hydro (transaxle) relief.

Last edited by eKretz; 07-12-2019 at 09:23 PM.
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