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post #31 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 01:57 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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At 800 psi there is no chance that machine would ever lift the front end. If the relief valve is not install, install and shim to at least 1,250.
The low pressure reading may be because the cylinder is leaking internally and that is all the pressure that will build up. He said that the squealing is coming from one of the lift cylinders, so I would guess that cylinder is acting as an 800 psi relief valve for the lift arm circuit.

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post #32 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by Nouveau Redneck View Post
The low pressure reading may be because the cylinder is leaking internally and that is all the pressure that will build up. He said that the squealing is coming from one of the lift cylinders, so I would guess that cylinder is acting as an 800 psi relief valve for the lift arm circuit.
That is what I was trying to get across about rebuilding items when they do not perform to expectations. I think he needs help to determine whether it's cylinders or the pressure relief valve setting (shimming). So I don't know if OP has a good pressure gauge that can go to 2000 PSI and check the pressure on the ports used for lifting. (Isolating where the problems are, tractor and the relief valve, then with the cylinders connected up) I believe that if you own a FEL or TBL you need to have a pressure gauge for testing hydraulic pressures. As my departed Dad and many others have imparted their wisdom (knowledge & experiences). As others have stated you need at least 1000 PSI, many shim to 1250 or 1450 PSI. You have 800 PSI, so it looks like shimming is in order. Then test again, paying attention (eyes, ears and other senses) if the one cylinder is still making noise, that one will need to be opened up and checked for blown internal seals (either repair or replace).

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post #33 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 03:56 PM
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You can often tell if there's a bad cylinder seal by starting the tractor cold then deadheading the cylinder against the relief at end of travel or at midtravel with the bucket or whatever against something. Give it a few seconds of that then feel the cylinder near where the piston should be. If it's leaking much it will get pretty hot pretty quick.
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post #34 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 04:57 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by Nouveau Redneck View Post
The low pressure reading may be because the cylinder is leaking internally and that is all the pressure that will build up. He said that the squealing is coming from one of the lift cylinders, so I would guess that cylinder is acting as an 800 psi relief valve for the lift arm circuit.
If that's the case, just use the bucket curl function to test pressure. If the whole issue is a bad lift cylinder (or something else on the lift circuit), you'll get a higher reading.


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post #35 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 06:03 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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If that's the case, just use the bucket curl function to test pressure. If the whole issue is a bad lift cylinder (or something else on the lift circuit), you'll get a higher reading.
This is why the proper place to install a gauge is between the pump and the valve set. Any of the work lines can be pressure tested at that point.

A leaking piston seal can be found by putting a load in the bucket, lifting it off the ground, centering the control lever, and shutting off the engine. Slightly worn seals will cause the bucket to drift back down over a period of time. Bad piston seals will have the bucket back on the ground in short order. Really bad seals won't allow the bucket to be raised.

Which of the two cylinders has the bad seals can be found with the same test after pulling the pin on one of the cylinders and swinging it up out of the way, then disconnecting and capping off the lines to that cylinder. Note that with one cylinder disconnected, payload capability is substantially reduced.

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post #36 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 06:11 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

I don't think I'd even try to lift anything at all with just one working cylinder, beyond an empty bucket. That would put all kinds of crazy torsional forces on pretty much everything, I'm almost thinking potentially more so than lifting something with just one side of a properly functioning loader. Yeah, I know they make loaders with just one arm, but that arm is mighty beefy since it's designed to account for those stresses. I'm still not sure I'd ever want one, but they do have some advantages on the skid steers that are designed with them (better visibility and side entrance mostly).


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post #37 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 08:03 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

With the minimal payload capacity available using one cylinder, there is considerably less stress than, say, prying up a concrete slab at near capacity using two cylinders with one corner of the bucket.

We're talking of maybe 200 lb in the center of the bucket with one cylinder off line versus 600-800 lb on one corner several inches outside of the attachment point of the nearest cylinder with both cylinders.

A show of hands, please, from anyone who has owned one for more than a few hours and not made a similar lift with their loader.

Unbalanced loads are common, especially for those making single chain lifts with only 2 lifting points on their bucket. One cylinder does the work while the other cylinder is developing the same force that can only be used for twisting the arms or bucket because it has no load.

Keep in mind that the loads for GT loaders are not all that heavy in relation to the size of the arms on most. An engine hoist with a 2.5" deep boom is rated for 1000 lb at 6'. A GT or SCUT arm is 5.5" deep, in most cases, and is 65.5" long, and there are two of them to lift an 1100 lb capacity load for a SCUT.

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post #38 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by RBRONKEMA GHTFD View Post
Based off what you're saying with your last post, I would guess the transaxle is not shimmed. I experienced a similar issue with my 585 when I got my 45 loader. Could barely lift the front tires off the ground. I shimmed the transaxle and vol-ah.
Now this makes me feel a little better. (He bought this tractor (because he likes my X728) on my recommendation.) No, it has not been shimmed. I am taking Andreas (thank you) up on his offer of shims because I can't find mine.

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
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1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #39 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by RussKish View Post
That is what I was trying to get across about rebuilding items when they do not perform to expectations. I think he needs help to determine whether it's cylinders or the pressure relief valve setting (shimming). So I don't know if OP has a good pressure gauge that can go to 2000 PSI and check the pressure on the ports used for lifting. (Isolating where the problems are, tractor and the relief valve, then with the cylinders connected up) I believe that if you own a FEL or TBL you need to have a pressure gauge for testing hydraulic pressures. As my departed Dad and many others have imparted their wisdom (knowledge & experiences). As others have stated you need at least 1000 PSI, many shim to 1250 or 1450 PSI. You have 800 PSI, so it looks like shimming is in order. Then test again, paying attention (eyes, ears and other senses) if the one cylinder is still making noise, that one will need to be opened up and checked for blown internal seals (either repair or replace).
Russ, yes, I have a new pressure gauge for up to 2000 psi. We rechecked the psi at all 4 ports because I originally checked only one at mid throttle, now checked at WOT with 900+ psi at each port.

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Originally Posted by TUDOR View Post
This is why the proper place to install a gauge is between the pump and the valve set. Any of the work lines can be pressure tested at that point.

A leaking piston seal can be found by putting a load in the bucket, lifting it off the ground, centering the control lever, and shutting off the engine. Slightly worn seals will cause the bucket to drift back down over a period of time. Bad piston seals will have the bucket back on the ground in short order. Really bad seals won't allow the bucket to be raised.

Which of the two cylinders has the bad seals can be found with the same test after pulling the pin on one of the cylinders and swinging it up out of the way, then disconnecting and capping off the lines to that cylinder. Note that with one cylinder disconnected, payload capability is substantially reduced.
Bob, when you say to check pressure between the pump and valve set, would the ports be the correct location? We did notice with the bucket raised and motor off, that the bucket would have a creaking noise as (I assumed) it was slowing dropping. Also, not clear on your directions to find the bad one. Will it drop faster than the one that is still good, or if they both drop at the same rate then seals in both should be replaced? My neighbor has one set of seals on order from the local JD dealer at $70+tx, is there somewhere else that might be less $'s? Since we are fairly certain the issue is the lifting cylinders, maybe best to replace both side right away?

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #40 of 44 Old 07-14-2019, 11:30 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by papashelby View Post
Now this makes me feel a little better. (He bought this tractor (because he likes my X728) on my recommendation.) No, it has not been shimmed. I am taking Andreas (thank you) up on his offer of shims because I can't find mine.
Iíll have them in the mail as soon as Iím back home in a few days.

A few months ago I was helping my neighbor clear a wooded area of his property. After a few hours of running my x595 & CTC loader, I noticed oil on the bucket. One of the curl cylinders was leaking. I raised the bucket, disconnected the hydraulic lines, and drove it home to investigate.

I undid the lines, pulled the cylinder, and then dismantled it in my bench. There was nothing obviously amiss, so I called a hydraulics shop in Baltimore. They assured me they could match up all the seals. So I took the cylinder to them and left 20 minutes later with the correct seals. I think they cost a staggering $15...

The loader has worked like a charm since - no issues.




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post #41 of 44 Old 07-15-2019, 02:06 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

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Originally Posted by papashelby View Post
Bob, when you say to check pressure between the pump and valve set, would the ports be the correct location? We did notice with the bucket raised and motor off, that the bucket would have a creaking noise as (I assumed) it was slowing dropping. Also, not clear on your directions to find the bad one. Will it drop faster than the one that is still good, or if they both drop at the same rate then seals in both should be replaced? My neighbor has one set of seals on order from the local JD dealer at $70+tx, is there somewhere else that might be less $'s? Since we are fairly certain the issue is the lifting cylinders, maybe best to replace both side right away?
The ports are a correct location. Between the pump and valve set is the easier of the two best locations. The difference is that at the ports you can't read the pressure needed to operate the cylinder because you can't plug the cylinder in when the gauge has already occupied the port.

The point of a pressure test in this case is to find the relief pressure, and to determine if there is a problem with the cylinders. The relief valve is immediately after the pump and before fluid is diverted to a port by the control valve, and cylinder pressures can't be determined unless the cylinders are online.

The primary purpose of a relief valve is to protect the pump from overpressure.

With the gauge between the pump and valve set, the relief setting can be observed by extending or retracting cylinders until they bottom out at the end of their stroke, In addition, the actual pressure to raise/lower the cylinders can be observed in real time for either direction of cylinder travel for any of the spools of a valve set without the need to move the gauge.

Some pumps and some valve sets come with a gauge port to make installing a gauge easier.

The creaking noise that you heard with the bucket raised is due to fluid leaking past the seals allowing the cylinders to relax.

In the single cylinder test that I outlined, if the cylinder being tested does not drop, the seals are fine and the seals in the cylinder that was disconnected need to be replaced. If the cylinder under test drops, then the test should be redone with the other cylinder to determine the condition of it's seals.

Any hydraulics shop and many auto parts stores will have the seals for considerably less than the $70 that the dealership wants. I recently replaced all but the dust seal in one of the lift cylinders for my SCUT for C$9.14 (less than US$7) at The Parker Store locally. My dealer wanted US$30 for the set.

Bob

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Last edited by TUDOR; 07-15-2019 at 02:12 PM.
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post #42 of 44 Old 07-23-2019, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

A big THANK YOU to AOW162435/Andreas! Shims arrived today, hopefully I get a chance to put them in tomorrow.

Also, thank you to Tudor for your expert advice and to everyone else who chimed in.

After I get back from vacation, it'll be time to tackle the cylinder(s) rebuild.

2012 X728
48C deck
MC519 collection system
3 point hitch
47" blower and suitcase weights
54" blade
Curtis ROPS soft side cab
Front bumper and fenders
Front mounted thatcher
45 Loader

1997 345
48" deck
snow thrower
2 bag bagger

1984 420 with 50" deck - sold

1968 112 all original, from my dad, with:
deck, snow thrower, white patio blade, cab, 1966 #80 cart with vac system, all shop manuals
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post #43 of 44 Old 07-23-2019, 10:38 PM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

^ Rick,
My pleasure!



Andreas


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post #44 of 44 Old 07-24-2019, 12:47 AM
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Re: X585 bucket down pressure can't lift tires off ground

No problem. Any time that I can help.

Bob

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