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Old 12-30-2012, 09:53 PM   #1
cstokich
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Default 816 Honda repower??

What is available to repower my 816 with a Honda Engine? I would be going from a CCKA to ? Also, is this a big deal or will things line-up pretty well? Thanks
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:55 AM   #2
jrd
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

You need an adapter plate with a bolt pattern suitable for the new engine. You need an engine with a 1-1/8" diameter keyed crank, long enough mount the bevel gear to drive the transmission. You need to make sure mufflers and things have clearance from the existing parts. I think that's the basics.

If you search on here you'll see plenty of discussion about repowers. Bruce Guthrie (gravelymay) has done all kinds of work in that area.

I've looked fairly hard at repowering my 812, or building up another one, using a honda v-twin. They have a range of engines from 20-22 hp which looked pretty good. Those are available with 3-3/4" long cranks, which is 1/4 shorter than you'd like, but should work.

Adapter plates go by on ebay periodically, but obviously you need to ascertain what bolt pattern you want. IIRC the honda v-twins have a pattern like a B&S.

Good luck, and if you go ahead with the project, please post pix!
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

An Onan P224 would be a easy upgrade since you already have the adapter plate.
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   24G (Onan 24hp)    24GLX - was 16G  (Onan 24hp)   8249 - was 8129 (Onan 24hp)
                 818T (Onan 18hp)       8163T - was 8123 (Onan CCKA) 

   5665 w/brakes        5665        5660        Pro-8         Pro-16 w/brakes

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Old 12-31-2012, 12:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

Whats the story on the CCKA?
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

cstokich
you live in the land of ONAN. (Mpls. Mn. )
i also do.
onan twin cylinder engines are my specialty.
e/mail or call 651 437 2826
thank you. boomer ( the used onan engine parts guy )
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

If you have a CCK motor, I'd spend the money to fix it. A Honda will be a minimum of $1500 to install and that should be more than enough to fix a CCK motor.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:30 AM   #7
cstokich
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

After meeting up with Boomer (nice guy!) I have come to the conclusion that the CCKA is running on borrowed time! The PO did some "fixing/covering up" and didn't a better job of covering up that fixing. Sooo...I think I'll run her (without a charging system) until something major happens and then jump to the Honda. I am curious if anyone has done this personally. If so, PM me or post on here as I have a few questions regarding type of engine, mounting plate, etc... Here's a pic of the ol girl with the new (to me obviously) blower!
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

If I were you I would find a nice P224 or P218 and bolt it up. Cheaper and easier than the Honda solution. Hard to beat almost 1000 CC of the Onan P224.

Don't forget that you will need an exhaust system no matter what.
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                              Current Inventory
   24G (Onan 24hp)    24GLX - was 16G  (Onan 24hp)   8249 - was 8129 (Onan 24hp)
                 818T (Onan 18hp)       8163T - was 8123 (Onan CCKA) 

   5665 w/brakes        5665        5660        Pro-8         Pro-16 w/brakes

Gravely Manuals also available at http://GravelyManuals.com
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

So what is wrong with the existing CCKA?
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:02 PM   #10
cstokich
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

There ar several little things that bother me with it...The major issue is the crank being worn from...??who knows what. The charging system is bad (gone now) and I decided not to replace the stator due to the crank issue and not sure if it would ruin a new one. The PO has just "tinkered" a little too much for my liking. Carb had a few issues which I hope are now fixed, just replaced the coil that was bad, etc... That being said, I can walk out and she fires right up no problem so it's staying until it declares itself dead!

Richard, What is the availability of the onans that you recommend? Availability/price of parts? And what time frame were those engines produced?
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstokich View Post
What is available to repower my 816 with a Honda Engine? I would be going from a CCKA to ? Also, is this a big deal or will things line-up pretty well? Thanks
Here is a thread about Repower with Honda
May help ?

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showth...=158456&page=2

Also if I can help call 423 716 4611
gravelymay@yahoo.com

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:20 PM   #12
gravelymay
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstokich View Post
After meeting up with Boomer (nice guy!) I have come to the conclusion that the CCKA is running on borrowed time! The PO did some "fixing/covering up" and didn't a better job of covering up that fixing. Sooo...I think I'll run her (without a charging system) until something major happens and then jump to the Honda. I am curious if anyone has done this personally. If so, PM me or post on here as I have a few questions regarding type of engine, mounting plate, etc... Here's a pic of the ol girl with the new (to me obviously) blower!
Here is another thread on Repower

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=118085

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:04 PM   #13
Richard-tx
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstokich View Post
, I can walk out and she fires right up no problem so it's staying until it declares itself dead!

Richard, What is the availability of the onans that you recommend? Availability/price of parts? And what time frame were those engines produced?
I would fix the CCKA. If the PO hosed up the end of the crank, there are ways to repair that.

A new stator should not touch the crank at all.

Availability of a P224 or P220 really depends on market conditions. Since you are in Boomers neck of the woods, I would think that they are fairly plentiful.

Parts availability is good. Part prices are cheaper than a similar Kohler Magnum. The most I paid for a P224 was about $600. That was a nearly pristine very low hours engine. The other P224 engines cost me $150, $250, and $350 plus time and gas to go get them.

Taken care of, almost any engine will last but I have never seen anything like the P224 from my 24G that I tore down. After nearly 3000 hours the only thing worn were the piston rings. A new set of rings, a quick honing of the cylinders and some new gaskets and seals and it is good for another 3000 hours or so.

The other Onan P224 engines I have ran fine so I never bothered to even measure the bores. The rod bearings looked good so I just put in a new crankshaft. The original crankshafts in those engines were the wrong length and diameter for a Gravely which is why I had to replace them. The cranks that I pulled out had zero wear or scoring. I have no idea how many hours there are on the other P224 engines I have.

The CCKA that is currently on my son's 8123 tractor came off my 816. The 816 was scrapped when the transmission failed due to abuse. When I tore the engine down almost 20 years ago due to smoking, the only thing worn on it were the piston rings. I honed the cylinders, put in new set of rings and that was it. That engine is still running fine today.

If you do decide to put a P224 on it, the extra power will spoil you. To be honest 24 hp is overkill on a 800/8000/G tractor with a 50" or 60" deck. Overkill is underrated.

As with most things, YMMV.

The big plus in your case is the fact you have the Onan adapter plate. That makes a replacement with another Onan a slam dunk. Bolt the adapter on the engine and slapthe engine on the transmission. No messing around with custom parts, ordering thrust bearing washers, etc.

The other plus is the exhaust system for the replacement Onan. A very nice stainless steed, mandrel bent exhaust system can be made easily. Unless you happen to like the plumbers nightmare/water pipe look, stainless is easy to fabricate. A hacksaw and a 1/2" wrench is about all the special tools needed. If you have a long tail hood, you will likely need a sabre saw with a metal cutting blade to turn it into a late version.

Most of the P224 engines have a voltage regulator bolted to the engine so that makes wiring it easy.

I would rather do three Onan engine transplants/upgrades than one Honda repower. I would be done quicker.

Richard
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Code:
                              Current Inventory
   24G (Onan 24hp)    24GLX - was 16G  (Onan 24hp)   8249 - was 8129 (Onan 24hp)
                 818T (Onan 18hp)       8163T - was 8123 (Onan CCKA) 

   5665 w/brakes        5665        5660        Pro-8         Pro-16 w/brakes

Gravely Manuals also available at http://GravelyManuals.com

Last edited by Richard-tx; 01-05-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:29 AM   #14
gravelymay
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-tx View Post
I would fix the CCKA. If the PO hosed up the end of the crank, there are ways to repair that.

A new stator should not touch the crank at all.

Availability of a P224 or P220 really depends on market conditions. Since you are in Boomers neck of the woods, I would think that they are fairly plentiful.

Parts availability is good. Part prices are cheaper than a similar Kohler Magnum. The most I paid for a P224 was about $600. That was a nearly pristine very low hours engine. The other P224 engines cost me $150, $250, and $350 plus time and gas to go get them.

Taken care of, almost any engine will last but I have never seen anything like the P224 from my 24G that I tore down. After nearly 3000 hours the only thing worn were the piston rings. A new set of rings, a quick honing of the cylinders and some new gaskets and seals and it is good for another 3000 hours or so.

The other Onan P224 engines I have ran fine so I never bothered to even measure the bores. The rod bearings looked good so I just put in a new crankshaft. The original crankshafts in those engines were the wrong length and diameter for a Gravely which is why I had to replace them. The cranks that I pulled out had zero wear or scoring. I have no idea how many hours there are on the other P224 engines I have.

The CCKA that is currently on my son's 8123 tractor came off my 816. The 816 was scrapped when the transmission failed due to abuse. When I tore the engine down almost 20 years ago due to smoking, the only thing worn on it were the piston rings. I honed the cylinders, put in new set of rings and that was it. That engine is still running fine today.

If you do decide to put a P224 on it, the extra power will spoil you. To be honest 24 hp is overkill on a 800/8000/G tractor with a 50" or 60" deck. Overkill is underrated.

As with most things, YMMV.

The big plus in your case is the fact you have the Onan adapter plate. That makes a replacement with another Onan a slam dunk. Bolt the adapter on the engine and slapthe engine on the transmission. No messing around with custom parts, ordering thrust bearing washers, etc.

The other plus is the exhaust system for the replacement Onan. A very nice stainless steed, mandrel bent exhaust system can be made easily. Unless you happen to like the plumbers nightmare/water pipe look, stainless is easy to fabricate. A hacksaw and a 1/2" wrench is about all the special tools needed. If you have a long tail hood, you will likely need a sabre saw with a metal cutting blade to turn it into a late version.

Most of the P224 engines have a voltage regulator bolted to the engine so that makes wiring it easy.

I would rather do three Onan engine transplants/upgrades than one Honda repower. I would be done quicker.

Richard

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Old 01-07-2013, 12:27 PM   #15
Richard-tx
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Default Re: 816 Honda repower??

My opinions are usually fact based ones. My experiences are my experiences. If you don't like them or don't agree with them, feel free to dismiss them or debate them. I have been wrong before.

When it comes to engine replacement or repowers, I have done enough of them and done enough engine repairs that I feel that I am qualified to comment on the subject(s).

As I have said before when closing some of my postings, I use the acronym "YMMV", which is defined as "Your Mileage May Vary". That loosely means your experience may be different. It can also mean to take my opinion, critically think about it, and make up your own mind or dismiss it entirely. It matters not to me.

Some people don't agree with my opinions and experiences and I accept and welcome that. Some people are happy with doing something completely different. That is great too. It is the sharing of experiences that makes a forum like this so valuable.

On the topic of engine replacement, when I started looking at other engine options and started to total up the costs, there were a few things that pushed me back into an Onan.

1 - The cost of a custom adapter plate, etc.
2 - The cost of a good looking exhaust system.
3 - The cost of an engine with proper displacement specs.

After experiencing an M18, that really underscored the need for a larger displacement engine. That also meant that the replacement engine would cost even more assuming the goal is the match or exceed the power of a CCKA or B48. It also narrowed the selections.

Since my target was for a engine that had between 780cc (48 cu inches) and 1000 cc (60 cu in) of displacement, that left few choices. Honda came close with 680 cc but not close enough to suit me. That left Kohler and Briggs. Getting into a new engine of that size isn't exactly cheap. Even good used ones were too pricey.

Then I started to look for a used Onan.

When I found the first P224 for $250 that clinched the deal. After installing that engine (the crankshaft was mostly correct) and gaining the extra power and having others tell me what a great deal it was, I decided to try again. So I started to look for another. I found another locally in about a month for about $350. The second transplant went easier than the first since I had a little more experience. Then I decided to buy a spare engine. That one cost me more, about $700 by the time I was done with shipping, but was a low hours, nearly pristine, and very late model engine.

Am I lucky? I don't think so. I passed on other similarly priced P224 engines because they were too far away.

Getting back to the original issue of the CCKA with the messed up crankshaft and flywheel, I called Bob (Boomer) and discussed the issue at length since he has seen the problem. We both agreed that a used flywheel, a little hand machining/cleanup with a file and a used stator would reliably repair the results of the PO's transgressions. There is no obvious need for a replacement engine. Having said that, the least expensive, least cost, highest performance solution would be another Onan preferably a 20 or 24 hp one. An 18 hp would work as it has a displacement of 47.7 cu inches which is very close to the CCKA's displacement of 50 cu inches but an extra couple of hp never hurt anyone.

So there you have it. Now if the owner decides to put a Yuka-Puck engine on it that is fine by me for two reasons.

1 - He is making a reasonably informed, and hopefully fact based decision. Perception based decisions are rarely the best ones.

2 - It is his tractor. What he does with it is his own business. Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness and all that.

In the end, what I would do is to pack up the tractor and bring it to Bob since both parties are relatively close to each other. It would be repaired and I expect that the repairs would be done for less than what an exhaust system would cost.

Again, and with most things, YMMV.

Richard
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Code:
                              Current Inventory
   24G (Onan 24hp)    24GLX - was 16G  (Onan 24hp)   8249 - was 8129 (Onan 24hp)
                 818T (Onan 18hp)       8163T - was 8123 (Onan CCKA) 

   5665 w/brakes        5665        5660        Pro-8         Pro-16 w/brakes

Gravely Manuals also available at http://GravelyManuals.com
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