1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information
Register Home FAQ Garage MTF Gallery Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Store Chat Room

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2012, 11:00 PM   post #1 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

I've had this old hoe now for about 10 years, served me well, never any trouble.the other day noticed some steam while idling,sure enough there was oil leaking at the front of the head ,shut it off checked oil, pan full with coolant and oil.Having to many projects on the go and not being familiar with diesel's I hired a tractor mechanic,he pulled it apart, the head had to be machined 60 thou,put it back together, fired it up and there is still water getting into the oil.It's not leaking at the head gasket now so the issues in the block,i guess the next thing is to pull the pan and pressure test it and see where it's leaking.
Talking to people I've been getting different stories,the mechanic that did the work so far says my engine would have to come out and be decked also' i never saw what the deck looking like, also he's been told these 201 cid 3 cyl blocks are notorious for bad castings and they have a hard time getting them to seal and on and on . he says he can get me a running one for $1800,seams a lot .Myself I would rather spend the money and have my engine rebuilt. Looking for some advice from someone that is familiar with these engines. Thanks Joe
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02290.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	130.4 KB
ID:	234508  
copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-25-2012, 12:39 AM   post #2 of 14
Ecnerwal
Not a restorer
 
Ecnerwal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NW MA / SW VT
Posts: 157
MTF Member # 47854
Images: 8
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Nice looking 4500 - certainly nicer than either of mine.

The trouble with hiring help is you're never quite sure what you're hiring until it's too late...

I don't know anything about this from direct experience, but I think it is not uncommon to need to sleeve the cylinders due to perforation - hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. If that's the case, decking the top surface of the engine won't do a bit of good, as far as I understand it.
__________________
Ford 4500 diesel TLB (740/753)
Ford 4500 gas 740 Loader/3-point (no pto)
Ecnerwal is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-25-2012, 02:01 PM   post #3 of 14
Tractortech
MTF Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 88
MTF Member # 44940
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Joe, The 201 is a good engine and it is not likely that the deck needs to be resurfaced as that is fairly uncommon problem.
1-Was the head checked for cracks when it was surfaced?
2-Were the freeze plugs checked on top of the head for any problems?
3-Did the mechanic see where the water was coming from?
4-Does the water drain into the pan when the engine is off? (Check by filling cooling system with water and drain all oil. Watch for water coming out of oil drain. May have to pressurize the cooling system and/or turn the engine over by hand to move pistons)

Before getting too worried, those questions need to be answered. There could be a pin-hole in the cylinder wall and that can be answered by #4 above. This is common to ALL diesels, but at various degrees. (other diesels have corrosion in liners and liner seals). Ford blocks do have a problem, but more so with later blocks as they took some of the metal out of the blocks. A rebuild by boring the cylinders and installing sleeves will fix the problem.
At any case, when the current problem is solved, you should add New Holland FW15 coolant conditioner, $7.00/bottle to prevent cylinder cavitation in the future.
Ask the mechanic if he knows how old the engine/tractor is and ask him if you got your money's worth!
Tractortech is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-25-2012, 10:21 PM   post #4 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Thanks for the replies,to answer the questions
1- I was told the head was magged for cracks and tested OK.
2- can,t say the freeze plugs were checked,I would assume they would be.
3- No I don't believe he did,I think he saw where the head-gasket was leaking oil and the oil pan being full to the brim with coolant and oil and assumed that the problem was the head-gasket.
4- Yes ,that was easy,I drained the soup out of the pan , poured some water into th rad and sure enough ,out the pan drain she comes.
I got to say in hindsight I should of come here first and asked a few questions before just going out and hiring a mechanic.winters coming and I've got work to get done . any more advice would certainly be appreciated. Joe
copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2012, 07:25 PM   post #5 of 14
Tractortech
MTF Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 88
MTF Member # 44940
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

I would also assume that the freeze plugs were checked, but....
You should remove the rocker cover and see if the plugs on top of the head aren't the culprit.
Doesn't explain the oil and steam, but it sounds like your head was warped. If so, then it must have overheated at some point which will stress old freeze plugs.
Tractortech is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2013, 12:23 AM   post #6 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Hi to everyone out there,I finally got back on the tractor project, pulled the pan,saw where it appeared to be leaking,broke her apart and pulled the motor. It's on the engine stand now,pulled the head,rolled it over and I got some pictures of the problem area. There is a small hole ,perfectly round about the size of a 3/32 bit. I'll try to describe exactly where the pinhole is.looking down from the deck into the water jacket and putting a light underneath the engine at the hole I can see the hole is just to the side of the cast cylinder. I stuck a pick in the hole and there is a small void behind the hole but doesn't seem to be to big , I'm thinking maybe I could drill and tap it for say a small 1/8 plug? It's hard to get at but doable,I would have to get a bit and weld about a five inch extension on it and the same with the tap.
I'm a electrician and I have a welding ticket,I'm not a diesel mechanic but I've welded lots of cast ,i don't want to make this into a big project. I would like to fix the hole without welding ,ring and bearing it ,maybe the front and back seals and put it back together. I'm sure there are some guys out there that have seen this before, looking forward to your valued opinions on the best way to fix this without tearing the motor down.Also I will post pics and maybe down the road this thread will help someone else. Jo
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02624.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	620.4 KB
ID:	339570   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02622.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	581.8 KB
ID:	339578   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02629.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	579.4 KB
ID:	339586   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02632.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	684.9 KB
ID:	339594  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02634.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	651.7 KB
ID:	339602  
copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2013, 03:39 PM   post #7 of 14
no2498
Senior MTF Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ohio
Posts: 492
MTF Member # 64738
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

that looks to be in a place that you can just drill tap an put a screw with lock tight in
lay the head gasket on to see if you can do it

john
no2498 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2013, 08:27 PM   post #8 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Just to be clear the pictures shown of the pinhole in the block [casting flaw] are taken from the bottom side of the block looking up towards the bottom of the cylinders. jo
copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-17-2013, 08:42 PM   post #9 of 14
davo727
MTF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: TX
Posts: 60
MTF Member # 66276
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Yeah looks like you can drill and tap and locktite a setscrew into it. Don't go real big.
davo727 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2014, 02:01 AM   post #10 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Thought I would update this thread. I seem to have fixed the problem with my block leaking internally. I took a self tapping screw ,I'd say Number six,screwed it in with some locktight on it and topped it off with some JB weld just for a little extra insurance . seems to have worked. Since the motor was out and on the engine stand thought we may as well ring and bearing it, crank was in nice shape,cylinders didn't have much of a ridge.Motor had never been apart,obviously the oil had been changed regularly,the hour meter reads forty one hundred hours. Picked up new pistons with the rings installed ,bearings and a complete gasket set from Ag Kits for under five hundred dollars delivered.was just going to get the rings but with pistons was only about one hundred and fifty dollars more. I'm attaching a few pics. jo
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03049.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	612.7 KB
ID:	620226   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03370.jpg
Views:	15
Size:	674.4 KB
ID:	620234   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03375.jpg
Views:	15
Size:	651.3 KB
ID:	620242   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02525.JPG
Views:	14
Size:	146.0 KB
ID:	620250  

copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2014, 10:58 AM   post #11 of 14
Nouveau Redneck
3K Poster!!!!
 
Nouveau Redneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,070
MTF Member # 19566
Images: 1
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

So it's all back together and running now? That's great news. Were the engine and the inside of the front bolster always blue?
__________________
Nouveau Redneck
Sean in PA
1973 Ford 4000 3-cyl gas w/S-O-S & 60 inch Woods rotary mower
2008 John Deere X500
2010 John Deere X304
2014 Kubota BX25D w/50" snow blower

You know you might be a Nouveau Redneck if...
1. You use the cup holder on your tractor to hold your cosmopolitan instead of a beer
2. Your "Santa on a tractor" Christmas yard decoration is actually a high tech digital hologram.
3. Your deer camp cuisine is better than most 3 star restaurants.
Nouveau Redneck is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2014, 01:15 PM   post #12 of 14
copojo
MTF Junior Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: British Columbia Canada
Posts: 7
MTF Member # 56594
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Yes, seemed like a huge job at the start,but I had bought all the manuals ,five in total ten years ago from the ford dealer for a very good price,i suppose the just wanted to get rid of them. Well it showed in there how to break it apart and I just did it one step at time,actually they are quite easy break apart, like anything once you have done it ,it seems easy.I couldn't afford to hire someone to do the whole job,once I had the motor out i took it to a fellow who works on heavy equipment in the field,after a little discussion we decided on how to fix the leak,I looked after that and he suggested we through some rings and bearings in it while we had it opened up. instead of wasting time cleaning the pistons up we bought new pistons with the rings installed,he slapped it back together,I put it in,he came over and helped me fire it up. I learnt a lot on this project and it was very satisfying to see it run better than ever.the only thing I forgot was to put a block heater in it.I'm sixty years old and still learning, to answer you question the engine,trans and diff were blue along with the bolster . When I bought it I had my buddy sandblast it and paint it with what we had and that was Cat Yellow,originally it was painted that pale yellow the ford used with the blue chassis like the ag tractors.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02297.JPG
Views:	18
Size:	143.7 KB
ID:	620490   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03386.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	630.4 KB
ID:	620498   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02635.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	671.3 KB
ID:	620506   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03365.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	615.3 KB
ID:	620514  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC02293.JPG
Views:	18
Size:	146.2 KB
ID:	620522  
copojo is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-01-2014, 03:57 PM   post #13 of 14
davo727
MTF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: TX
Posts: 60
MTF Member # 66276
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

Very nice! Thanks for the update and pics. Happy for you. I have a 68 4500
davo727 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2014, 10:54 AM   post #14 of 14
blackbob
MTF Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 36
MTF Member # 173810
Images: 2
Default Re: 1968 4500 tractor/backhoe engine problem

All through the 1970's and early 80's Ford were the market leader in farm tractors here in the UK, but they had this 'porous block' problem with their casting process which they never really solved until the 40 series in early 90's, people got fed up and changed to JD, and JD are still no1 in sales here ahead of CNH and MF. Some blocks lasted many years and some only a short time, 4-cylinders seemed to be worse than 3's or 6's, the usual cure is just a new block although they can be bored/sleeved.
Glad you've got your engine fixed, if it does develop another leak (sorry to sound pessimistic!) at least you'll now know what to do...
blackbob is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:19 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
Compact Tractor Reviews Tractor Reviews Snowblowers Lawn Mower Forum
My Tractor Forum Snow Thrower Power Equipment Forum
Combine Forum Snowblower Forum ATV and UTV Reviews