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Old 09-20-2012, 03:45 AM   post #1 of 18
altair
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Default Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Curious about synthetic 2 cycle oil with the older motors. Have about 6 or 7 Bricktop motors, and with the synthetic oils, never see exhaust smoke anymore.
Seems that all 2 cycle oils sold over here are semi or full synthetic...are these oils safe for the older C-12, D4 and 500 series motors?...almost like they look too "thin".
Even at a 25:1 mix, there is no smoke..obviously looking for the best level of protection for these old mowers..what do you guys think?
Thanks!
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:38 AM   post #2 of 18
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Talking Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Hi! I, personally, still use Lawnboy oil as that is what Lawnboy recommended and that is what my folks used, and that is what I have used for the last 27 years with no problems. However, with modern technology being what it is, the synthetic and semi-synthetic oils should be more than adequate as long as they meet or exceed the ratings recommended by Lawnboy/Toro. I, personally would not mix them at the recommended rates but would continue to mix according to what the original mower requirements were. The advantages should be better lubrication, cleaner burning, and no carbon build up. Again this is just my opinion as I have no experience with the synthetics. I also do not use gasoline with ethanol and I am fortunate to still be able to purchase it here but I know a lot of places have no choice. Bottom line is you have to make due with what is available where you are located but do your research to make sure what you choose is compatible with your equipment. Bill
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:07 PM   post #3 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

For the old C series engines, I was told by twocycle to use SAE30 Non detergent oil at 16:1. That is what the original instructions said. I think that if you are questioning the lubrication quality of synthetic oils you should try looking for the Lawn Boy oil. At least you know for sure that is made for the older motors. I've been using Mystik JT4 which is synthetic at the recommended ratio on each motor and have had great results so far. I had a lot of carbon build up on the exhaust ports with the lawn boy oil, so I tired to switch oils. I still make it a point to use the same mix ratio that the manufacturer recommends.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:59 AM   post #4 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

You should NEVER use an automotive SAE 30 mixed at any ratio if you care about your equipment! Not only will you be surrounded with noxious smoke, but the carbon and ash crystalize and will chew up the piston, rings and cylinder. I know this for fact as I inherited an old Remington saw from a relative many years ago run on a mix like this, and the results was an engine with scored internals. Oil debates live on where it mostly survives on personal preference. Synthetics are made to be run lean. Leaner than what most engine specs call for from the last 30 to 50 years or so. I haven't owned anything in the last 20 years requiring anything more than a 32:1, but if I needed to run a 16:1, I would stick with a modern, high quality petroleum based oil. The extra oil will protect surfaces with lower tolerances and bushings over bearings than running a 40 or 50:1. I know many use a higher ratio with certain oils and have no issues, but it's all your "gut feeling" on how things will turn out down the road. I've been using a very high quality racing blended petro based oil for almost 3 years now in my 32:1 Lawnboys on up to 40 and 50:1 powered equipment with nothing but positive results. The mix ends up at about 42:1 due to the manus 3oz per gallon recommendations. My Lawnboys love the mix and end up coated nicely in oil internally for seasonal storage-even for more than a year or 2.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:57 PM   post #5 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by echoman View Post
You should NEVER use an automotive SAE 30 mixed at any ratio if you care about your equipment!
I disagree with this^^^^^^




A video of that harmful "noxious" smoke.........

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Old 09-21-2012, 04:10 PM   post #6 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

I'm not sure what you are proving by the video, twocycle. That is noxious to me.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:21 PM   post #7 of 18
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Talking Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Hi Guys! Maybe someone on here knows the answer to this question. When did Lawnboy oil first enter the market. I know the specs of the older equipment called for 30 wt. mix but that was more than likely before Lawnboy introduced their own oil. Even after that the starting instructions gave the option to mix Lawnboy oil at one ratio and other oils at a different ratio. I'm pretty sure that what was good enough back then would work okay but if Lawnboy has their own oil and recommends it, even over their old 30 wt. recommendation then I would use the upgrade. Just because it was recommended 40 years ago doesn't mean it's the best choice today. Bill
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:33 PM   post #8 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

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Originally Posted by Yard Nazi View Post
Just because it was recommended 40 years ago doesn't mean it's the best choice today. Bill

I agree , but what is the point of having a 2 cycle mower from the 50's or 60's if you are going to run it like a mower from 2012.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:38 PM   post #9 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

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Originally Posted by hodge View Post
I'm not sure what you are proving by the video, twocycle. That is noxious to me.
The point of the video is to show what a 2 cycle mower from the 50's looked like running. If you want to own a old 2 cycle mower then you have to run it like a old 2 cycle mower. That mower is as old as my father, 58 yrs old and it is still running after all these years using 30w oil mixed with gas.

Last edited by 2CycleJay; 09-21-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:57 PM   post #10 of 18
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Thumbs up Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Thanks for replies guys, and I didn't mean to start an argument..lol

My main concern, which I should have mentioned in the first post, is the fact the old bricktops will have huge engine part tolerances compared to today's modern motors. So my concern is that the synthetic oils may not "fill" these tolerances and lubricate properly?

The synthetics here seem like water when pouring them out, whereas the older mineral 2 cycle oils of only 5 years ago were thicker. I have no doubt as to the synthetic oils ability to lubricate modern engines, but wondering about the old bricktops.

I used to run the bricktops at 25:1 with the older mineral 2 cycle oils, but with the new oils I don't ever see a single puff of smoke...guess seeing that was my safety blanket!

As long as the old motors are being protected I'm happy. Might even bump the synthetic up to 20:1 for all the motors since there is no smoke..but with the echo powerblend oil here at nearly $30 a litre it adds up.

Thanks
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:51 PM   post #11 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard Nazi View Post
Hi Guys! Maybe someone on here knows the answer to this question. When did Lawnboy oil first enter the market. Bill
I've gone through everything that I have here, but can't come up with the exact date. My intuition says sometime around the introduction of the D400, but can't find anything to support it. Does anyone have a dealer handout in their collection that might shed some light on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by altair View Post
Thanks for replies guys, and I didn't mean to start an argument..lol

My main concern, which I should have mentioned in the first post, is the fact the old bricktops will have huge engine part tolerances compared to today's modern motors. So my concern is that the synthetic oils may not "fill" these tolerances and lubricate properly?

The synthetics here seem like water when pouring them out, whereas the older mineral 2 cycle oils of only 5 years ago were thicker. I have no doubt as to the synthetic oils ability to lubricate modern engines, but wondering about the old bricktops.

Thanks
I'm one that sticks by what the engine manufacturer recommends, at least for the mix ratio. Synthetic oils are a world better than traditional oils and personally, have no fears in using them. Right now, I only use synthetics in 4 cycle products and have been for almost 20 years. Synthetics do flow better across a wide temperature differential, so it is possible that is the difference you notice when pumping. It is also possible that the viscosity is different as well, but that again is a hunch.

So are the classic 16:1 engines okay to use synthetic oils instead of the 30W recommended? I think as long as you maintain the correct mix ratio, the engine is not going to care because the mathematical relation doesn't take into account oil type, at least as far as the math goes. Is it possible that dilution would be different, possibly, but the ability of the gas to mix with the oil shouldn't change.

My $0.02 - you pay your money and take your choice.

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Old 09-21-2012, 07:29 PM   post #12 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Well I have always wondered when Lawnboy oil was first introduced also and I am also thinkin it was around 1963, about the same time the D-400 came out. I have an owners manual for my 1966 and it talks about using Lawnboy oil and even has a picture of what the can looked like in 66.

I think as far as the mix ratio and type of oil, in my opinion we should always adhere to what the machine manufacturer states, if it's wrong the machine manufacturer will have to answer to that. In the case of Lawnboys it's pretty obvious to me that those engineers knew what they were talking about, if they didn't we wouldn't see so many originals still running today.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:34 PM   post #13 of 18
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Talking Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Hi again Guys! I do not think you will find it written anywhere in any Lawnboy literature or specs not to use Lawnboy oil for a 16:1 engine which would have originally called for 30 wt. at 16:1. So just because 30 wt. was originally specified doesn't mean we shouldn't use Lawnboy oil today. I am only speaking for Lawnboys here and as far as the Lawn Queen video goes there was probably only one specification for type of oil and mix while those were being produced. It may run well on 30 wt. as did the Lawnboys (and they smoked a lot too at 16:1 running 30 wt.) so the preference falls to the equipment owner. Run what was originally called for or use a more modern oil. It's your choice. Bill
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:27 AM   post #14 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

twocycle, are you serious in your 'justification' that running a SAE 30 in ANY 2 cycle engine of ANY era is okay? How in the world do you stand behind and operate that thing without coughing up black lung butter?? Just because your mower was produced before most any actual 2 cycle oil was introduced doesn't mean that engine would highly benefit from running it now. Automotive oils were and still are meant to lubricate and not burn, because when they do, they leave behind VERY hard and gritty carbon deposits that WILL destroy your engine. I've seen it 1st hand more than once. I'm very surprised that Jacobsen still runs although I could get audio with your video. I'm not trying to debate you, just give you and anyone else reading the posts straight up facts. Ask any long time, well experience small engine builder/racer about running oils both back in the day and by todays standards. Lots of info to absorb! I've spoken with both factory tech's from leading engine/tool makers to engine oil/chemistry techs on this subject. I roll with facts and use accordingly. Great thing about this country? Freedom! Use and enjoy what you will! It's your equipment.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:10 AM   post #15 of 18
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Default Re: Is synthetic oil okay in the old motors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by echoman View Post
twocycle, are you serious in your 'justification' that running a SAE 30 in ANY 2 cycle engine of ANY era is okay?

I never made that statement ^^^

I am talking about 50's and 60's 2 cycle engines. The reason we all keep finding these OLD and STILL running 2 cycle mowers is because of the way things were done in the old days using 30w oil.


Quote:
I'm very surprised that Jacobsen still runs
Do not be surprised!!! The old Jacobsen engines are superior 2 cycle engines with bronze bearings and connecting rod , I own 4 older Jacobsen mowers and they all run and cut just like they were brand new....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DOZGpcVRuA
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