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Old 03-09-2012, 11:37 AM   post #1 of 19
surfed2death
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Default hydraulic drive setup

Hello, this is my first post other than my intro post.
Ok to start a little background.
I am basically a person that if I’m not staying busy with a project, I’m bouncing off the walls. I stumbled across a 1985 JD 116H that was going to be crushed for the scrap weight. I asked what was wrong with it and they said it wouldn’t move anymore and the lawn mower mechanic said it was shot. The motor worked so I bought it from them for 40 bucks. Turned out the brake wasn’t disengaging because of a weak spring. Works great now, I think the mechanic was trying to get them to buy a new one which I guess worked. I had it going in 10 minutes once I got it home. I have been using this for a normal rider and occasionally a food plot tractor to mow off the clover or trash.
Well my food plots are really hard to get at because of water crossings, trees ect..., a garden tractor is the best size but a two wheel drive needs to be trailered in with an atv. This is how everything is done now but the atv is not perfect for tilling and the JD only mows off the trash. It is hard to keep the atv at 3 mph. My hand and wrist feel like a ball of cramped muscles at the end of the day.
This got me to thinking of building a garden tractor size 4x4 articulating tractor. I have found a JD 318 with a bad hydrostat and a motor that burns oil like its gas. When the snow goes he said I can have it for 200 bucks. This should be a good parts tractor. I am going to build a frame to fit the hood and steering pod, tires ect.

On to my question…
I decided to make the drive all hydraulic, not gear or hydrostat. The fluid will be sent through steel lines rather than rubber hose other than at the pivot. I attached a pdf of the potential drive system. This is my first attempt to work with hydraulics so be kind. It will have 4 drive motors, 3 directional valves, a flow control valve, divider/combiner valve ect.
The pump is a 22gpm at 2000psi/3000psi max, the motors are 15gpm - 1850psi – 2950 in lb torque – 304 rpm. The pump will be giving 16gpm max to the drives essentially cutting the rpm in half and a quarter in low gear, the remaining 6gpm will drive the steering and hydraulics for equipment. The directional valves are all 12 volt directionals and the flow control will be similar to a flow control valve on a belt bottom potato box. I found a 26hp briggs and Stratton to power the system so the hp shouldn’t be an issue.
What do you think? I might not have the symbols correct in the pdf, my first shot at it. With this set up I figure my top speed with 24 inch tires will be just over 10 mph in high gear and just over 5 in low. More than I need. But I am wondering if this will pull properly or if I’m starving the motors for gpm.
Any knowledge thrown at this project is appreciated.
This project will be a go as I have time deal but I will be posting updates as I go.
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File Type: pdf hydraulic drive.pdf (66.8 KB, 350 views)
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:27 PM   post #2 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

, surfed2death!!

I suggest that you consider pressure compensated flow dividers to replace V3 and V4. That may make some difficulty for having 2 speeds. Your machine can only make use so much horsepower to the wheels, whether 2wd or 4wd, before it will break traction. Your proposed drive does not have the same limitations that a 2wd hydro tractor has for power delivery. The Sundstrand that normally resides in a 318 has a 0.913 cu-in displacement and is relieved at 1500 psi. I have never run up against the relief valve at full throttle with my 2400 lb MF1655 before breaking traction in low (4.5 mph) range, but it does have more pull than high (9mph), until it breaks traction. Consider downsizing the pump for a little less top speed and only one range, you're unlikely to get even close to relief pressure with your machine. Maybe 16 gpm and divide 4 off that for your steering and implement lift. You won't need more than that for small cylinders.

Pressure compensated valves will give you differential action in turns which your schematic won't. The inside wheel turns slower than the outside wheel, even on articulated machines. It will result in a limited slip as opposed to your positive lock, but both wheels will always be powered.

In mobile hydraulics, every effort is made to keep heat build up to a minimum. Your schematic shows a closed center valve at V1 which will force all the pump output over the relief, when in the center position, which will generate heat big time. Substitue the schematic for V1 with the one at V4.

Your schematic will work (except for V1), but you'll be scrubbing tires.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:40 AM   post #3 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

I've had time to rethink my post.

First, my compliments on your schematic. Well done!

Hydraulic systems have some inefficiencies attached to them due to internal clearances and high pressure fluid. Gear pumps and motors are 75 - 80% efficient, vane pumps and motors are approx. 85% efficient and the best are piston pumps and motors at 90% efficiency. Hydros use piston pumps and motors for a combined efficiency of approximately 81% ( 0.9 X 0.9 = 0.81) and that Sunstrand Series 15 in the 318 is at the top of the heap as far as premium hydros of the day are concerned.

I've rethought my recommendation for a smaller pump. Stay with what you planned for a pump, only with the smaller flow for your ancilliaries. It's highly unlikely that you will need that kind of power, but with the normal inefficiencies, it doesn't hurt to have all you can get on tap.

For a first project, your schematic shows that you've been doing some serious studying. You may already have these bookmarked.

http://www.edgeroamer.com/sweethaven.../hydraulics01/

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html

And these might be handy.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=3047

http://machinedesign.com/article/siz...fficiency-0520

http://ihservice.com/PDF's/Tube%20Selection%20Chart.pdf
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:14 PM   post #4 of 19
surfed2death
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Thanks
I have been trying to get this done right the first time. The more research a person puts into it, the more you get out of it.
I was worried that it would be under powered for major pulling. Im looking into a two or three bottom plow with 10 to 12 inch moldboards, we will see. I somewhat knew there would be some wheel scrub with the high gear but low gear will be used about 90% so I wasnt too worried about that but I will be looking into the valves you mentioned.
I didnt think about V1 causing heat when closed, thanks for the heads up on that.
As far as the 22gpm pump, yea it is kinda overboard but I figured more is better if the briggs can handle it.
The only thing I am still a little worried about it that the motors might be starved for oil considering they are set for 18gpm.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:59 AM   post #5 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Hydraulics work by positive displacement. The motor limit is mostly due to the size of port that is in the case. You can only push oil so fast before you start making more heat than work.

Going with less flow is not a problem. Consider it an easy way to get gear reduction. There is no starving of the motor unless something else is turning it faster than the oil is flowing.

As far as pulling is concerned, you are most definitely not underpowered. Underweight, yes. It takes a fair bit of weight to make use of even a 2wd heavy GTs pulling capability. Even my relatively light MF12H would accelerate while towing an 18' travel trailer. Take your pick, full throttle and accellerate the hydro, or full hydro and throttle up the engine. Either method worked with that 3600 lb trailer.

Here's a vid of a MF1655 pulling triple 12" plows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twdxa...ure=plpp_video

On another forum he stated that the tractor needs an oil cooler for the hydro if you're going to do that for any length of time. He made 2 circuits of the field and the hydro was pretty warm.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:53 PM   post #6 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

wow, that MF pulls great! Also Im glad to hear you cannot starve a hydro motor. That was about the main issue I was worried about along with the power.
With the weight, it will be getting all four tires filled with fluid and also wheel weights if needed. If more is needed on top of all that then suitcase weights. This will be the work horse once built.
The cooling was a concern so I was planning on putting in a fairly large oil cooler with a fan up front. I found a racing cooler that is 12x16 with fan attached, should do the trick.
The other issue is the 12 volt directional valves constantly drawing power. Once built, I will be testing the total draw with everything running including the lights and if needed add a alternator. I have seen these added to garden tractors along with instructions during my searching so I bookmarked them.
This should be a fun project
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:30 PM   post #7 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

If you're taking this out to the boondocks, add a winch and a group 27 deep cycle battery to the mix. You won't be getting it unstuck by hand when you're alone. It will weigh 1500 - 2000 lb.

Rule of thumb: 4wd will get you one vehicle length further than 2wd before you get stuck.

Don't get carried away with the cooling. Operating temperatures for oil are in the 140* - 160*F range. A cooler isn't really needed until you're past 180*. A thermostatically controlled electric fan would work well.

I see an alternator in your future. Actually, I don't see a heat problem with the low pressures the system will be operating under. All those steel lines will contribute to cooling the system. Get an IR temperature gun and check the reservoir after a heavy work session.

That brings up another point. Reservoirs are sized to the pump flow capability and downstream actuators. In your case those actuators are motors that are in constant use so you should have enough oil in the reservoir to run the pump for about a minute at full flow, 20 - 22 gallons. At 15 gallons you may need a cooler, at 10 gallons you will need a cooler. Nothing less than 10 gallons is acceptable. (I'm shaving the limits here. Judge yourself accordingly.) With cylinder actuators, eg. FEL use, 1/4 pump capability is barely acceptable.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:33 AM   post #8 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

In regards to the heat I found on my last hydraulic drive project heat was more of a factor that originally anticipated but can be managed.

Here are the numbers you need to keep in mind for oil cooling in your system if you use a 26hp engine driving a 81% efficient pump .

26hp x 745.6watts/hp = 19388 watts total power

81% of 19388w = 15704w of work energy
19% of 19388w = 3683w of loss (heat)
3683watts = 209Btu/min = 12566Btu/hour

You will need a oil cooler with the ability to dissipate more than that heat energy generated, also keeping in mind ambient air temperature will affect the ability to dissipate that energy into air and will determine the temperature rise of the system.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:42 PM   post #9 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

anything ever become of this project?
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:55 PM   post #10 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Tudor,

You need to look forward when you are plowing!! You are about to run over the lead guy. Your tractor sure is doing good.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:57 PM   post #11 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Quote:
You need to look forward when you are plowing!! You are about to run over the lead guy. Your tractor sure is doing good.
Maybe that's why the video hasn't been updated since Oct - 2010

He might have run them all over !





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Old 03-10-2014, 04:57 AM   post #12 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by biker View Post
Tudor,

You need to look forward when you are plowing!! You are about to run over the lead guy. Your tractor sure is doing good.


Not my tractor. That one belongs to a former member with the username of ducky.

MY 1655 is set up for industrial/commercial, not agricultural.

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Old 03-10-2014, 07:47 AM   post #13 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Just another idea....
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:06 AM   post #14 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

Dang, Kevin! You do have the neatest toys!!
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:21 PM   post #15 of 19
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Default Re: hydraulic drive setup

I like the steering set up!
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