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Old 08-31-2011, 09:40 PM   post #1 of 16
Dave4514
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Default Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Mowing tall grass in transport mode, as I always do when in a hurry, the blades on my 4514 began to slow down. The Honda kept going at the same speed as did the engine. A few seconds later smoke began to waft out from under the hood. I immediately turned off the PTO and pulled back the hydro shift lever stopping the tractor but left the motor running. At that point I thought the belt must be slipping and burning. As I got off, the smoke was getting bad so I killed the engine. Lowering the deck, I reached for the spindle pulleys and found they were free moving. Opening the hood I saw the PTO belt pulley was plenty hot. I disengaged the hydro under the seat and pushed my dead Honda back to the garage. In the garage the smoke was still coming from the PTO area and thought the belt must have slipped. The PTO pulley was much too hot to touch so I loosened the belt at the deck and removed it from the deck pulley. This gave me enough slack to get it off the PTO pulley and not melt.

Giving it a few minutes to cool, about 1 beer, the engine was restarted without the belt and more smoke and sparks began to come out from behind the PTO. On closer inspection it looked like both the braking and driving parts of the PTO were engaged. The friction material in the PTO is cone shape and contacts the drive plate. The PTO brake friction material presses against a flat stationary plate. They should never happen at the same time and that explains the heat but the sparks were from behind that area. Starting the engine and moving the PTO lever on and off did not have any effect on the problem and I did not see the brake plate move as it should. My heart sank as I knew it was time for a multi-hour tear-down.

This is a good opportunity to document the PTO rebuild steps with photos. So I spent a few days documenting the steps involved and took photos of the PTO components.

First a list of tools I used. You may not need all of them.
10 mm socket
12 mm socket
14 mm socket
Rachet handle and 3" extension
Vice Grip pliers
Gear puller or steering wheel puller
Die grinder and cut-off wheel
Screwdrivers
10 mm open-ended wrench
2 - 12 mm open-ended wrenches
0.024" feeler gauge or a match book cover


This drawing shows a parts diagram of the PTO and I will refer to it for part names in red.



Step 1, remove the hood by first disconnecting the wire to the headlights. Look for the connector on the lower left side of the hood and a clip holding the wire to the hood. These are hidden behind the rubber flap. Disconnect both. A small screwdriver is helpful. Remove the two hinge bolts (12mm hex) and lift the hood off.

Remove the two bolts holding the radiator. (10mm hex) This is the only way to get easy access to the front of the motor. Next take the belt off the PTO pulley if it is still on there.




Step 2, to avoid draining the coolant I used a rope and bungee cords to raise the radiator. In my garage I attached a rope to the ceiling and raised the radiator about 1 foot leaving the hoses attached. Be sure to disconnect the temperature sender on the lower left of the radiator by pulling off the wire. This is just a slip fit connection. There is also a ground wire connected to the lower edge of the radiator on the front, remove that bolt (10mm hex). Remove the overflow bottle and let it hang down next to the oil filter.

The radiator has two short legs on the bottom that fit into rubber grommets and can be lifted after removing the two bolts shown in the above photo. Just get the bottom of the radiator above the crankshaft. Doing this will expose the bolt holding the fan and make it possible to rebuild the PTO.



With the radiator raised it is easy to get to the center bolt holding the fan on. On this photo you will see the two legs on the bottom of the radiator.

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Old 08-31-2011, 09:41 PM   post #2 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Step 3, remove the fan by taking out the center bolt using a 14mm socket and extension. Turning this bolt counter-clockwise to loosen may roll the engine over without loosening the bolt. A few whacks with your palm should break it loose. Next remove the fan. The fan hub is keyed to the motor shaft and by wiggling, it should break free and come off. Behind the fan hub is a washer, remove this next.

Step 4, pull off the drive pulley assembly. This is not keyed and should just slide off. On the back side of this pulley you can inspect the friction material and decide if it is time to replace it. Honda has info on how to measure this and is available in the shop manual, but in my opinion if the PTO does not slip when engaging the blades, it is fine. The flat friction material at the edge of the drive pulley is not at all critical and Honda has a service limit of "Zero" in thickness. I will guess that Honda is not concerned how fast the blades stop when the PTO is turned off.

Step 5, remove the return spring that connects between the chassis frame and the control plate. I found it easiest if the PTO lever is in the off position and used vise grips to disengage the spring end connected to the chassis on the left side.



If the friction material is worn out and you are replacing the drive pulley, this is as far as you need to go. Reassembly is in reverse order, then skip down to step 10 for adjustment of the new drive pulley. Be sure to use Locktite on the fan bolt. If this loosens it will cause the drive pulley to slip and wear out. I also use Never-Seez on the parts that should slide off.

My problem was deeper inside and needed more disassembly.

Step 6, Drive plate. This was the worst part of the job for me. The drive plate is keyed to the motor shaft and may need a gear puller, at least mine did because as it was frozen to the motor shaft. The first photo shows the plate as mounted on the shaft.



I had to modify a puller, making the feet thin enough to fit between the drive plate and brake plate behind.

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Old 08-31-2011, 09:42 PM   post #3 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Here is a shot of the gear puller with the feet stuffed between the drive plate and brake plate. Even with the feet ground down I used a couple of screwdrivers to spring back the brake plate. This plate uses 3 springs for mounting and will flex back and not be damaged.



If you don't have a puller or don't want to grind one to fit it is possible to drill two holes in the drive plate a then tap a thread in the holes. This method allows a cheap steering wheel puller to be used. I drilled and tapped my new plate.




Step 6, Remove the brake plate and ball retainer by removing three (10mm Hex) screws and washers. Don't worry about dropping the three balls as they are captured in the triangle of metal and come out in one assembly.

This is what waited for me, the ball bearing completely torn apart.

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Old 08-31-2011, 09:43 PM   post #4 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Step 8, remove the base plate bolted to the engine block by three (12mm hex) bolts. These three bolts are of different lengths. The top most bolt is 40mm long, the lower left bolt is 16mm long and the lower right is 45mm long. Be sure to put them back in the correct locations on reassembly.

Step 9, with the base plate out-of-the-way, I found the inner race frozen to the motor shaft and no easy way to use a gear puller. I was unable to twist i off using a wrench so I cut it off with an abrasive wheel, cutting above the shaft key way to avoid damage to the motor shaft. Apparently when the bearing failed the inner race spun on the motor shaft and welded itself to the shaft.





And here is a photo of my Harbor freight grinder and cut-off wheel.



The rusty spacer behind the bearing inner race is called a "Distance Collar" by Honda. That was also damaged by the frozen bearing.

Now for the failure analysis of what killed my PTO and caused the smoke and sparks. First a little background info is needed.

I replaced my PTO clutch several years ago but did not replace the drive plate behind the clutch. Being cheap, I thought there was no reason to since it is made from iron and it is working against the organic clutch friction material so it should not be worn and be OK. I never thought to check how the bearing caused damaged from behind when the first ball bearing froze up years ago.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:44 PM   post #5 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

This photo shows the back of the drive plate.



A close up of the drive plate hub shows that it was damaged with a step worn into it, and the new hub on the right.



Here is a photo of another step worn into the spacer that is behind the bearing that failed. Both of these areas should be flat with no step worn into them.



These steps were ground into them by the inner race of the first failed ball bearing when it froze up and spun on the motor shaft. The step diameter is the same as the inner race. Here is an artist's drawing of what happened and I am no artist.



The rubber seals on my newer bearing got eaten away and the balls and cage in the bearing made contact with the drive plate on the front side and the spacer on the back side. As the drive plate is spinning it chews its way into the bearing. On my PTO the bearing finally broke apart and made the fireworks. Had I replaced the damaged parts along with the new bearing the first time it failed, it would not have happened as soon or at all.

The simple solution, inspect everything when replacing a failed ball bearing and replace those parts that show wear. There was no way for me to tell when the bearing had failed until it froze up. There was no sound and everything seemed almost normal. When engaging the PTO, the blades seemed to take a few seconds to get up to speed and that was not normal but I had no idea what caused that. Now I know that the friction between the bearing and drive plate slowed the engine. With the new bearing and parts installed the blades come up to speed much more quickly with only a slight dip in engine speed.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:44 PM   post #6 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Now for the rebuild, I ordered new parts and while waiting for the parts to arrive I decided to make a new spacer, "distance collar".

The first photo is a shot of boring out a shaft using my antique South Bend lathe.



Cutting it off to length.



Old and new.



Not everyone will need to make a spacer since Honda still sells all the parts. Here is a list of parts with Honda numbers. These will work with all years of the H4514H tractors.

75141-758-003 Plate, drive
75106-758-013 Pulley assembly, drive <-- this part has the clutch friction material
75110-758-003 Plate, ball control <-- this has the ball bearing and is not needed if in good shape. The bearing, 6005 LU or (60052RS) can be pressed out and replaced if damaged.
91551-758-000 Collar, distance <-- This is what I made in my lathe, but is less than $10 to buy.

At this point in the PTO rebuild it is time to reassemble everything. Hopefully that will be easy and I will not go through the steps, but adjustment is needed.

Step 10, How to adjust the PTO after the install.

Honda first wants you to adjust the PTO cable length. To do this you measure the free play at the top of the PTO lever and they specify 1/10 to 2/10 of an inch. This is measured with the PTO lever in the "Off" position and just wiggling the lever. The free play can be adjusted by loosening the lock nut and turning the adjusting nut on the cable. These nuts are located next to the fuse box and are 12 mm hex. I found it impossible to get an open end wrench on them without removing the fuse box from its bracket. To do that, a small screwdriver is needed to spring a plastic tab toward the fuse box as you pull the box up. After that, I ended up using two open-ended wrenches and flipping them over to get enough swing. Clearance is tight.

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Old 08-31-2011, 09:45 PM   post #7 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Next, adjustment is needed for the drive pulley. First loosen the adjusting bolt nut of the base plate. The plate is next to the motor and this bolt is used as an adjustable stop for how far the drive pulley will move. Push the control plate all the way to the adjusting bolt. Turn the bolt to get a clearance of 0.55 - 0.63 inch and tighten the lock nut.

Reconnect the return spring, shift the PTO lever on, and measure the clearance between the drive pulley and brake plate. The clearance measured with a feeler gauge should be 0.024" or more. If the measured clearance is less, then adjust by turning the adjustment bolt. For some unknown reason, Honda wants you to start all over again at step 10 if less. I just use a wrench on the bolt to set the gap with the PTO on and did not see a need to adjust the cable or remove the return spring again. It worked just fine



There aren't many of us H4514H owners around, but I hope this write-up will help to show what is involved with a PTO rebuild and tools used. The shop manual is great but it lacks some needed details.

Now it is time for me to cut down the foot long grass on my lawn and put the PTO to a test.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:57 PM   post #8 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Great job Dave! Thanks for taking the time to post this for everyone.
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Old 09-04-2011, 10:29 PM   post #9 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Thanks markusedma.

For some unknown reason tinypic decided to delete one picture of the PTO cable adjustment. Here it is again.



By the way, mowing the long grass with the rebuilt PTO worked well. I just had to mow the lawn twice to get the chaff small.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:16 PM   post #10 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Hummmmm, I wonder the value of an electric PTO clutch. Has anyone tried that?
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:14 PM   post #11 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

The GX360 engine used in the 4514 came equipped with a 10 Amp alternator. An electric PTO is certainly an option that may work and with a relay wired to the safety switches it could be turn off the blades as well.

Give it a try.
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:52 PM   post #12 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Good stuff. I was taking the clutch off today while getting ready to pull the engine. One of the bearings is dragging; I'm definitely going to be replacing it so I dont get the sane fireworks.
This is a great reference. Thanks.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:43 AM   post #13 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

WOW - perfect timing with this post dave - mine just started giving me the faint aroma of burning rubber and i suspect it's the PTO

I've forgotten far more than i remember, but when i pulled the PTO pulley off the 3813 i rebuilt last year, the **** pulley wasn't hardened steel and the puller (i used a 3 jaw) managed to deform the soft metal of the pulley

did you have any issues with that - it just seemed odd for the pulley to be so soft
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Old 10-03-2011, 04:21 PM   post #14 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

Larry, welcome back old friend.

The drive pulley is made from soft steel and if it is stuck, it will be a pain. I had that problem with a stuck pulley the first time I tried to pull it off many years ago. In my case the ball bearing inside the pulley froze and wore against the shaft. This made a groove that prevented me from just pulling the drive pulley off. Using a three arm puller, I was finally able to get it off by using a small screw driver to move it inner race of the damaged bearing to get over the step. I did this with the three arm puller almost loose and was able to push the drive pulley back slightly. This gave me enough room to get a small screwdriver in to move the race.

My motor drive shaft looks like a beaded necklace with damaged areas caused by the drive pulley and the bearing further inside. In my last rebuild I built up the worn areas with JB Weld and used a file to get the shaft diameter back to 1". My thinking was it the new bearings are working correctly there will be no wear on the epoxy until the new bearing fails again. Maybe by that time I'll be old enough to not care.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:05 PM   post #15 of 16
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Default Re: Have you ever wondered how to rebuild the PTO in a 4514? (Picture intensive)

creative use of the JB weld - i can't count how many applications i've seen it used for, and worked,

one concern though on that application, JB Weld softens somewhere between 250 & 300F (i use it on something we mfgr, and when we have to remove it, that's the temp it takes to get it soft enough to scrape off).

considering the temps the cranks shaft, probably somewhere in the low 200-215 or whatever temp the oil sees, i'd keep an eye on it, as i'm sure you probably already are.

there are epoxies that will take up to 1000F (tooling epoxies) before softening but you have to post cure them to raise the "thermal set". ie, once room cured, cure again at an elevated temp , let cool, do again at an even higher temp etc till you've walked it up to the temp you need

years ago, in the 50-60s, mfgrs didn't fact,or in thermal set (btw, thermal set is the temp at which the epoxy will soften and lose it's shape memory). Mfgrs made fishing poles in fiberglass. 1st gen poles, folks bought em, left them, in a bent shape to fit into the trunk of their car parked on a hot asphalt parking lot - when they'd pull their fishing poles out later, they'd find the poles had acquired the bent shape permanently
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