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Old 06-15-2011, 01:21 PM   post #1 of 12
geotc
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Help Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

I have a 4118 with a hydrabagger setup. After rebuilding the old motor on the vac, thinking it was a blown gasket, I put it back on and found out the housing was cracked. Had local dealer look for replacement but had no luck. My question to all is can I use a hvfb motor, someone told me I should be able too just may not be able to run at full throttle. (not sure about this) What do you all think, and/or does anyone know of a a ahvfb motor floating around out there. Right after I posted this I went to ebay and saw on listed, I just dont need the whole system. But may be my only solution.
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Last edited by geotc; 06-15-2011 at 01:39 PM. Reason: answered one of my own questions
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:37 PM   post #2 of 12
Bob Mac
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Talking Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Hi geotc,
I cannot answer your question but check out this link which is the parts manual for HVFB and AHVFB attachments although it may not answer your question.
http://www.rottmansales.com/ingersoll/8-3082.pdf

I was just looking thru my Case/Ingersoll stuff and I found the pump specs. The pump on a 4100 series tractor has two sections with the rear section for just the power steering. The front section operates everything else. It has the same specs as the single section pump that is found on 4000 series tractors. So I would say yes to your question, however look in the above link and you will see that the shafts on the motors are different as are their respective impellers.

Bob MacGregor in CT

Last edited by Bob Mac; 06-15-2011 at 01:54 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:41 PM   post #3 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Thanks Bob I have looked at those and that is what started my question, I can't see any difference in those parts diagrams.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:21 PM   post #4 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

geotc,
I paid $700 for a new motor for my vac a couple years ago when I needed it in a hurry for leaves. You may be able to buy a system for less, and may be your best bet.
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:48 AM   post #5 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Found a motor so that solves my imedate problem of getting the vac up and running.

But still have a question about difference between 4000 series and 4100 series when it comes to pumps and hydrolics. I think I am going to post a new thead to talk about it.
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Old 06-18-2011, 07:33 PM   post #6 of 12
Bob Mac
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Talking Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Hi geotc,
I gave you some incorrect info in a previous post. Here are the differences hydraulicly between three different 4000 series tractors.
A basic 4000 series, no power steering, pump spec is 8 GPM @ 0 PSI @ 3,000RPM. Belt driven mower deck and snow blower.
A 4000 series with power steering , pump spec is 9.5 GPM @ 0 PSI @ 3,000 RPM. There is a flow divider that splits the 9.5 GPM output so some of it goes to the power steering pump. Belt driven mower deck and snow blower.
A 4100 series tractor has a two section pump. The front section spec is 9.5 GPM @ 0 PSI @ 3,000 RPM. The rear section spec is 2.25 GPM @ 0 PSI @ 3,000 RPM. The rear section is for the power steering only.
All attachments for 4100 series tractors are hydraulicly driven, there is no room on the front of the engine for an electric clutch as is found on 4000 and 4000PS tractors.
The travel circuit on a 4000 and 4000PS has a relief setting spec of 2,100 PSI.
There is a system relief valve on a 4100 and has a relief setting spec of 2,800 PSI.
The 3100 and 4100 series tractors were produced for about 2 years, 92-93 if I'm not mistaken, very limited production. The 3100D and 4100D were diesel engine powered and had similar hydraulic systems to the Onan gasoline powered tractors.
Bob MacGregor in CT
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:17 AM   post #7 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

To maybe help clarify the specs which Bob properly notes, the 3100/4100 series tractors do have about 19% more flow (9.5 GPM vs. 8.0 GPM at 3000 rpm) in the main hydraulic circuit, when compared to the standard tractors.

This results in all the motors for AH tractors being resized to work correctly at those flow rates.

Most often the specs have been posted up on the forums at the 3600 RPM point ... which is 11.25GPM for the AH and 9.5 for the newer standard tractors.

As noted, the Power Steering tractors do have a larger main pump section, which puts out similar to the AH. However, the P/S priority flow divider peels off about 1.75 GPM so that at 3600 you still have 'standard' tractor flow rates in the main system.

As an aside, at low engine speeds, the P/S valve can take almost all the available flow, resulting in the tractor slowing noticeably upon rapid steering movements.


As a further aside ... because the subject comes up periodically ... a reminder that both the travel control valve and PTO valve from the AH tractors lack pressure relief sections. As such, these are generally not compatible to swap in to a standard tractor. The AH tractor uses a stand alone relief valve in the hydraulic system.

Brian
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:00 PM   post #8 of 12
Bob Mac
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Talking Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Hi Brian and group,
Pump specs vary a lot particularly the specs put out by distributors. The specs that I have were put together by someone years ago in a 4 page pdf. I downloaded it and I have quoted from it several times. All the Ingersoll operators manuals that I have state a GPM rate @ 3,000 RPM so I have tried to stay with the same spec parameters for comparison purposes.
Bob MacGregor in CT
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:02 AM   post #9 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Yes, Bob, and your specs are accurate. I hoped only to add a little clarification, since both version of specs float around.

Further, that power steering tractor thing can be a bit mis-leading, if someone interprets that AH implements would perform at normal capability on a P/S tractor.

The Ingersoll hydraulic specifications manual actually lists both 3000 and 3600 RPM flow rates ... both at 0 PSI (free flow) and I have seen both specs floating around the forums.

Someone will pick up on this newer thread and see relatively complete information ...

Thanks to all for the questions and the replies ... that's what keeps these forums moving along well.

Brian
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:12 PM   post #10 of 12
Bob Mac
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Talking Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Hi Brian,
The pump spec sheet that I have shows 3,600 @ 0 PSI, 3,000 @0 PSI, 3,000 @ 1,000 PSI and 1,500 PSI for 14 HP and above.
Bob MacGregor in CT
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:18 PM   post #11 of 12
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Default Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

Thanks guy's for the info Brian can you explain what you were talking about here:

"As a further aside ... because the subject comes up periodically ... a reminder that both the travel control valve and PTO valve from the AH tractors lack pressure relief sections. As such, these are generally not compatible to swap in to a standard tractor. The AH tractor uses a stand alone relief valve in the hydraulic system."
(I know I did this wrong, how do you copy & past someone else's threads)

What does this do and how does it work. This is what I ment when I said I wanted to start another post. I know I love my ingersoll/case but I don't have the understanding of some of these system, how they work and what makes it so much better than others out there. Sometimes I just like to ask questions, hope no one minds here.
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:02 PM   post #12 of 12
Bob Mac
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Talking Re: Are hvfb and ahvfb motors interchangeable?

These hydraulic systems have relief valves placed into the systems for system protection from excessive and dangerous pressures.
The standard tractors have a relief valve installed on the rear of the travel control valve. The travel control valve is located under the foot plate on the tractor. On a standard tractor this is sufficient for use with Case/Ingersoll standard attachments.
The all hydraulic tractor still has the travel control valve in the same location but due to higher flow rates and operating pressures Ingersoll installed a separate system relief valve. It is not directly associated with any other hydraulic component and therefore was called a stand alone relief valve.
When a Hydrabagger/Hydravac is connected to any 4000 or 4100 series tractor the flow of oil from the pump goes to the hydraulic PTO then thru the Hydrabagger/Hydravac motor and then back to the travel control valve before it goes to the drive motor. In other words the blower motor is in series with the drive motor. With this in mind, and the differences in pump output between a 4000 and a 4100 tractor, the blower motors on the Hydrabagger/Hydravac are different between an HVFB and an AHVFB to accomodate for this difference.
I think that I got is correct!!
Bob MacGregor in CT
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