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Old 03-18-2011, 07:49 AM   post #1 of 53
krazymatt
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Default How does a Trans PTO work?

I recently got a 1974 Ford 3000 Diesel English model, and according to the serial number it has a "Trans PTO". I'm just curious how it's supposed to properly work? I've had a independent and live pto, but never a trans pto. It's the only thing I don't like about this tractor but it was a great deal. I've noticed it seems to always be on or off and is difficult to shift. If I press the clutch in it doesn't stop. I'd appreciate some explanation as to how it was designed to work and that way I can see if it has problems that I'll need to address. Thanks...
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:59 AM   post #2 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

IMo, they named it wrong. Should have been called a clutch driven PTO. Assuming the "Britts" built it like Henry and Harry designed it, the PTO is driven through the clutch, to the transmission, through the transmission, and toward the rear of the tractor where the PTO engagement lever is, and then out the rear. If the PTO engagement lever is on and the clutch is engaged the PTo turns. "Tractor won't stop", you need an overrun coupler at the PTO. Short version, got to go.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:25 AM   post #3 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raytasch View Post
IMo, they named it wrong. Should have been called a clutch driven PTO. Assuming the "Britts" built it like Henry and Harry designed it, the PTO is driven through the clutch, to the transmission, through the transmission, and toward the rear of the tractor where the PTO engagement lever is, and then out the rear. If the PTO engagement lever is on and the clutch is engaged the PTo turns. "Tractor won't stop", you need an overrun coupler at the PTO. Short version, got to go.
So if the clutch is depressed it should stop the pto?

What is a overrun coupler?
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:48 AM   post #4 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
IMo, they named it wrong. Should have been called a clutch driven PTO.
I think that transmission driven PTO is the correct name for it. The PTO is connected directly to a gear in the transmission. The clutch drives the transmission, and the transmission drives the PTO.

Quote:
So if the clutch is depressed it should stop the pto?

What is a overrun coupler?
Not necessarily. If the tractor is still rolling when you press in the clutch, like when you're coasting down a hill, the PTO will still be getting power from the transmission. If you have a heavy implement attached to the PTO, like a brush hog or a roto-tiller, the implement's momentum can force the PTO to continue to rotate even when you push in the clutch and press on the brakes, and that momentum can actually overcome the power of the brakes and cause the tractor to keep driving forward because the PTO is directly coupled to the transmission.

An overrun coupler (ORC) is basically a one-way ratcheting mechanism that you connect to the PTO shaft on the tractor that has an output shaft that is the same as the PTO output shaft. It is made to transfer power from the PTO on the tractor to the attachment when the PTO is supplying power to the implement, but when the PTO stops supplying power and tries to spin slower than the implement, like when you put in the clutch and apply the brakes, the ORC ratchets and allows the implement's momentum to keep it spinning without having that momentum come back up the PTO shaft into the transmission so that you can stop or slow down when you need to without being driven forward out of control.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:16 AM   post #5 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

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Originally Posted by Nouveau Redneck View Post
I think that transmission driven PTO is the correct name for it. The PTO is connected directly to a gear in the transmission. The clutch drives the transmission, and the transmission drives the PTO.



Not necessarily. If the tractor is still rolling when you press in the clutch, like when you're coasting down a hill, the PTO will still be getting power from the transmission. If you have a heavy implement attached to the PTO, like a brush hog or a roto-tiller, the implement's momentum can force the PTO to continue to rotate even when you push in the clutch and press on the brakes, and that momentum can actually overcome the power of the brakes and cause the tractor to keep driving forward because the PTO is directly coupled to the transmission.

An overrun coupler (ORC) is basically a one-way ratcheting mechanism that you connect to the PTO shaft on the tractor that has an output shaft that is the same as the PTO output shaft. It is made to transfer power from the PTO on the tractor to the attachment when the PTO is supplying power to the implement, but when the PTO stops supplying power and tries to spin slower than the implement, like when you put in the clutch and apply the brakes, the ORC ratchets and allows the implement's momentum to keep it spinning without having that momentum come back up the PTO shaft into the transmission so that you can stop or slow down when you need to without being driven forward out of control.
So the ORC is basically a solution for the crappy design of the trans pto?

How much is a ORC?

Yesterday I noticed with a brush hog, I was having trouble shifting the PTO lever into gear with the clutch depressed and the tractor stopped; it was grinding. Did I have to have the tractor in gear? Perhaps I need a clutch adjustment or clutch replacement? The clutch itself is in great condition and doesn't slip or engage high as far as normal operation of the tractor without PTO operation.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:00 PM   post #6 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazymatt View Post
So the ORC is basically a solution for the crappy design of the trans pto?

How much is a ORC?

Yesterday I noticed with a brush hog, I was having trouble shifting the PTO lever into gear with the clutch depressed and the tractor stopped; it was grinding. Did I have to have the tractor in gear? Perhaps I need a clutch adjustment or clutch replacement? The clutch itself is in great condition and doesn't slip or engage high as far as normal operation of the tractor without PTO operation.
The Transmission driven PTO is a 60 year old design. I doubt if Harry or Henry had any visions of how useful the PTO would become. Crappy design? Basic no frills low cost 60 YO engineering but I would not say crappy. PTOs have evolved. Thousand and thousands of them working every day.

ORC, about $50. many places. Check the vendor supporters of this fine site.

The problem getting into gear with the 'hog' installed is typical. Install the ORC and then adjust the clutch if needed.
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:07 PM   post #7 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raytasch View Post
The Transmission driven PTO is a 60 year old design. I doubt if Harry or Henry had any visions of how useful the PTO would become. Crappy design? Basic no frills low cost 60 YO engineering but I would not say crappy. PTOs have evolved. Thousand and thousands of them working every day.

ORC, about $50. many places. Check the vendor supporters of this fine site.

The problem getting into gear with the 'hog' installed is typical. Install the ORC and then adjust the clutch if needed.
I don't mean it's a crappy design in that it doesn't work. I just thought that by 1974 they would've installed independent or live PTO's on all their machines and done away with the early 1900's technology. You would think that it would be more costly to the manufacturer to offer so many PTO options in those days. If it's normal to have trouble getting it into gear with the hog on is good in that I hopefully don't have to do any costly repairs. Thanks
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:10 PM   post #8 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

So if say one would want to convert a Trans PTO to a indepedent or Live PTO would you need the whole rear half of the tractor as a donor or is it even possible? Thanks...
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:20 PM   post #9 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

They sold them with the various PTO options at different price points. Just like you can get a car with manual or power windows and/or door locks, etc. Some people bought them without a PTO at all because they didn't need one, they just pulled plows and wagons, others used the PTO to drive irrigation pumps. Heck, some people bought tractors and parked them next to their irrigation water source and left them connected to a PTO driven irrigation pump for their entire lives, and the tractor only got driven that first time just to get to that spot where it spent the rest of its life driving a pump. If it's going to sit with the gear shifter in neutral all the time, simply running a pump whenever the engine was running, why bother with live or independent PTO?

There are a few on here who could give you the exact list of parts you would need to swap out to get live or independent PTO. It would probably be cheaper, and definitely much easier, to sell that tractor and buy one that already has the live or independent PTO.
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:41 PM   post #10 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazymatt View Post
So if say one would want to convert a Trans PTO to a indepedent or Live PTO would you need the whole rear half of the tractor as a donor or is it even possible? Thanks...
It is possible but you need everything from the flywheel on the engine back to make the conversion. As said sell the tractor and buy one with the PTO you want.

I have never been really bothered by the type of PTO a tractor has, just always made sure to have the ORC no matter what type the PTO. Now live hydraulics THAT's a different story.
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:20 PM   post #11 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Yeah, It doesn't bother me much as long as it works. The only thing I'll use the PTO for is bush hogging. A ORC will take care of any safety issues. Does the ORC usually stay with the bush hog or implement when it's off or on the tractor? Come to think of it I need to check and see if there' s not one on the bush hog that came with the tractor. I haven't used it yet and I noticed it had a very different drive shaft hookup. It didn't have the spring with pin; it had a round colar looking mechanism. I've never seen a driveshaft hookup like it. Maybe if I'm lucky there's one on that bush hog drive shaft.
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:28 PM   post #12 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

No the ORC is attached to the tractor, the slip clutch is usually attached to the bush hog.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:35 PM   post #13 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Yeah, the ORC usually is pinned to the PTO shaft of the tractor using a roll pin. Consider it a semi-permanent attachment to the tractor; the only time you'll likely remove it is for maintenance. Once installed, you'll connect all PTO driven implements to it.
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Old 03-19-2011, 12:38 AM   post #14 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

i'd like to add that with the tractor stopped and implement stopped, it should not be hard to engage the pto and it should not grind. if it does.. clutch may be dragging.

might check to see if pto shaft has in / out "thrust' play this could have damaged the 'dog' clutch..

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Old 03-19-2011, 05:27 PM   post #15 of 53
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Default Re: How does a Trans PTO work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazymatt View Post
I recently got a 1974 Ford 3000 Diesel English model, and according to the serial number it has a "Trans PTO". I'm just curious how it's supposed to properly work?
There are three basic types of PTOs on farm tractors. Live, transmission driven, and wheel driven. I'm not sure what exactly your 3000 has.

Live means the PTO can be turned "on" or "off" with no effect on the wheel drive -and the wheel drive can be "engaged" or "disengaged" without affecting the PTO operation. Often done with a dual-clutch setup, but can also be done via a separate hydraulic system for the PTO and often marketed as "Independent." To be technical, the very first dual-clutch PTOs were patented as "independent."

Transmission-driven usually means the PTO get's it power from the transmission side of the main engine clutch via the trans-input shaft. So, when that clutch is used to disengage the wheel drive, the PTO stops also.

Wheel driven is a PTO that is, in-part, powered by transmission gears - but only turns when the wheels are actually turning. My Deere 1020 and Ferguson TO35 have three-way PTOs - with live, trans, and wheel drive.
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