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Old 05-31-2010, 12:13 AM   post #1 of 26
XLerate
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Default Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Hi guys!

Just rebuilt an MTD rider model 131-600-000, 14.5hp/42", with a Briggs 287707-0220-1, 14.5 hp engine. I'll give as much info as possible here.

Went through the whole machine, rebuilt or replaced everything. Then rebuilt engine with new piston, rings & rod, new gaskets & seals, but had to re-use head gasket [didn't look that good either]. Honed it lightly first, and dial-bore gauge showed stock bore specs all the way down in 4 directions. Used lots of assembly lube, staggered my ring gaps, did a hand lap valve job, changed valve seal & adjusted valves, rebuilt carb [correctly], set armature gap.

Haven't 'dialed in' carb but got it running and it ran good, but not excellent. Ran better at first, then degraded. I immediately put it to hard work mowing, running at 3/4+ throttle for a few hours. Rested one day, then more of the same. LOTS of debris, rocks, obstacles, already threw a blade & hub [!] almost lost a quill, bent deck several times, blades are pounded of course. Can't be helped under the circumstances.

So, it seems to be using too much oil, like over a quart in 2 long, rough days.

Started backfiring slightly and missing some at lower rpms, especially when backing off throttle. On a steep upgrade with fuel somewhat low it may backfire pretty hard, like a fuel problem also, maybe starving float bowl?

Sound to you guys like I have a flywheel key just about sheared off, also causing backfiring?

Would a poor head gasket that was kinda leaky on one side [pushrod side] maybe account for oil useage? I doped it heavy with Copper Coat and let it tack before install, but it's not new.

Oh, and one valve's already a little rattly, dare I Loctite the adjusters?

Thanks for any suggestions!
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:59 AM   post #2 of 26
hankll
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Well, I have to wonder if you wouldn't have been better to replace the head gasket [didn't look that good either] by your description. If you are having backfiring, it is very likely the carb needs a rebuild.I had a Tec 13 hp that I thought was a timing issue, and someone on here nudged me to re-try the carb rebuild. I soaked it over night in a carb cleaner in a bucket, blew it out with compressor air. Probed all orifices with a soft wire(bread wrapper, shipping tag wire) and mine ran great. I was surprised that backfiring was a symptom of dirty main jet, but I filed that one for future indication of that problem.

It is common to have to re-torque head bolts after initial torquing. I don't know what to tell you about the oil usage, after the new rings. If cross hatch isn't done right in the cylinder walls, it may take a while for the rings to seat, would be my best guess. If the valve lash is loose, it does need to be re-set. I believe it is .002-.003 setting, but double check that. Loctite would be ok as far as I know.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:18 PM   post #3 of 26
eddyyy302
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

It blows my mind that after rebuilding an engine an supposedly replacing all of the parts that you list you would reuse a HEAD GASKET of all things. Spring the $8 and replace the gasket, it is common for them to blow between the valve galley and cylinder and use oil. After replacing the gasket you can properly diagnose the engine.

Dan
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:14 PM   post #4 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Well, thanks, the carb was rebuilt properly as mentioned in my first post. I soak for a week, then use an assortment of small wires I keep for the purpose of cleaning jets, air bleeds & orifices. Soak again, then use Berryman's Chemtool spray directly into all orifices until visibly spraying out other end of circuit, then blow out with compressed air.

Got the cross hatch right, using a stone hone rather than a ball hone.

On the head gasket, I ordered a complete factory gasket set. The head gasket was incorrect. I then found out this particular engine uses an uncommon gasket which I was unable to locate in time. Needed to have engine running ASAP, not twiddling my thumbs waiting another week on one more part, holding up the rest of the rebuild.

It is of course a simple matter to swap out the head gasket without even pulling engine once it arrives, so no big deal there, minds blown & bleeding or otherwise.

I'm not an imbecile that just fell off the back of the turnip truck, as implied. Been doing small & large engine repairs/rebuilds, including professionally, since about 1961.

Was hoping a Briggs pro would know specifically if a poor head gasket, weak on the pushrod side, would cause major oil consumption. The gasket was not blown, just poor surface integrity in one small area.

Another small engine pro at the local shop examined the gasket & agreed it could be re-used in a pinch, if coated and if properly torqued. BTW his Briggs info also listed the incorrect gasket.

Thanks
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:26 AM   post #5 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Hi again!

Got a chance to check out the engine. Finally got 'Special Order' head gasket so pulled head, found that Copper Coat held up and apparently good sealing on 'blown' gasket.

Note; HAD to reuse head gasket last time because weed clearing here is mandated by Fire Marshall. Couldn't get correct new gasket on time. If clearing not done on time up $2,500 fine, plus pay for fire crew to clear. Cost us $5,000 a few years back, after hiring someone to cut it all, FD said not good enough. We were gone, got the bill in the mail!

So, unstuck head & gasket [MAN that Copper Coat is sticky!] and just plain horror stricken with what I see. All honing marks gone, cylinder badly scored, light scratches but everywhere around whole circumference of bore. Oil was dirty black, like it was 5+ years old? Head had nasty thick deposits, carbon and possibly aluminum, not sure. Plug badly fouled, heavy deposits. Looks like more than from running rich. Engine looks like it has 10 years on it, not 16 hours.

So, after a proper rebuild [except for re-used head gasket] this engine is totally shot in only 16 hours use! If the cylinder's that bad I imagine all bearing surfaces are toast.

It's as if the oiling system failed completely, but not sure if these Briggs even have an oiling 'system'? I followed Factory Service Manual on rebuild, used good procedures. Sure don't want to rebuild again until I figure out what caused total failure. There were no leftover parts when I rebuilt it, everything correct by the book.

How are these things supposed to maintain oil pressure or get proper lubrication? There was lots of oil in top end under OHV valve cover, bore was oily on teardown. I'm stumped!

Thanks
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Old 06-21-2010, 05:25 PM   post #6 of 26
Walt 2002
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Same reply as on the other forum you posted to.

Walt Conner
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:23 PM   post #7 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

That is not my experience on the gaskets. I checked up to a dozen online sources for parts, including gaskets. I chose the one that had the best prices, seemingly for the same merchandise. I keyed all searches to 287707 0220-01 with date code 9408034A . This is an OHV engine, that's the numbers off it.

From PSEP webpage http://www.psep.biz/store/briggs_and...asket_sets.htm
495993 MODEL 287700-287799 BEFORE CODE DATE 97100600
THIS IS A BRIGGS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT GASKET SET (INCLUDES OIL SEALS)

I received a set that all gaskets fit except for head gasket, which was an L-head gasket.

I finally found the correct gasket at K&T Parts House, which is #23-11077 on the package. That arrived a couple of days ago. It's the same as 273280s.

I took air cleaner off tonite, suspecting a major problem there. The housing cover was tight, and found that air cleaner element was screwed down tight. Housing attached tightly to carb throat. Dust & debris on outside of element, housing outside of element gray/brown with dirt & dust. Removed element and inside of air filter & housing was clean, not even dusty, just like it should be. So, the problem certainly wasn't the air cleaner element.

On disassembly the cylinder was wet with oil, top end had plenty of oil, air cleaner was fine, but entire bore, all the way around cylinder walls, is nothing but scratches & scoring, like it ran with no oil! Rod was knocking, lots of rattling and engine smoking, using over a quart per 8 hours of oil.

The cause of the problem is Briggs designed this $1,300+ engine with a lame-brain cheapo splash oiling system. Oil pan sump is 9" wide but oil capacity is only 1 quart, meaning oil maybe 1/2" deep in pan at most.

So, everytime I mowed on my hills here which is all I have, the engine is starved for oil, causing extreme scoring on cylinder walls destroying the engine.

A colossal waste of a lot of time, money and effort thaks to a lousy design by Briggs & Stratton. Last one for me!
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:59 AM   post #8 of 26
Walt 2002
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

"The cause of the problem is Briggs designed this $1,300+ engine with a lame-brain cheapo splash oiling system. Oil pan sump is 9" wide but oil capacity is only 1 quart, meaning oil maybe 1/2" deep in pan at most."

Well somewhere along the line you are all messed up. B&S has been using that oil slinger system for at least 30 probably 40 years. It is a highly efficient and successful system. An oil pump will not pick up oil when there is no oil there and generally require a higher level than a slinger system.

"So, everytime I mowed on my hills here which is all I have, the engine is starved for oil, causing extreme scoring on cylinder walls destroying the engine."

The capacity of oil for that engine is approximately 1-1/2 qt. IF you are running 1 qt., you are a half qt low to start with.

Those engines can be bought new for $500 - $600.

That is not a B&S part number as I said.

Walt Conner
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:40 AM   post #9 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Sorry, have to disagree. You may make a hard drive for brand loyalty or protecting the company name & image but I've got the fried engine to back up my statements!

I will re-phrase and say approximately 1 quart oil capacity, but this particular engine certainly does NOT take 1.5 quart, and it's the original dipstick. I was amazed at how little oil it held when I filled it.

"Well somewhere along the line you are all messed up. B&S has been using that oil slinger system for at least 30 probably 40 years. It is a highly efficient and successful system. An oil pump will not pick up oil when there is no oil there and generally require a higher level than a slinger system."

No sir, I'm not messed up, but my engine sure is! I have used various BS engines for 40+ years, but never this design. After being professionally rebuilt with good quality parts it's a boat anchor after 16 hours. The system is not efficient if it starves the cylinder on steep hills, with no warning in the Owners or Service manual to that end!

"Those engines can be bought new for $500 - $600."

Can be bought, good choice of words. Tulsa Engine Warehouse says $700, before shipping. The average person takes his tractor into the shop and says, "I need a new engine, how much?" There's nobody out there that will put a new Intek OHV 14.5 hp engine in an MTD tractor for $500-$600, nobody. Average cost is a minimum of $1,000, and up & up!

"That is not a B&S part number as I said."

Right, because it's an aftermarket part.

My lifetime has been machines & troubleshooting & diagnosis of complex machine systems and powerplants. So I used 40 years of hands on experience to diagnose this particular problem.

1] Assembled properly by professional mechanic
2] Good quality parts
3] Lubrication to factory specification
4] No oil leaks
5] No failure in air filtration system
6] Normal usage for machine's supposedly intended purpose
7] Catastrophic failure due to inadequate lubrication of cylinder in normal usage.

Conclusion: Splash oiling system is not adequate to lubricate cylinder when machine is operated on hills, therefore engine is not suitable for this use.

Briggs & Stratton provided these engines to MTD for this specific use, even though engine is not suitable for this application due to lubrication inadequacy.

I wonder how many hundreds or thousands of Briggs & Stratton Intek Vertical shaft engines with minimal oil capacity and inferior splash lubrication have failed, and cost machine owners a whole pocketful of dough?!

.
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:51 AM   post #10 of 26
Walt 2002
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Well did not bother reading all the rant but the simple fact is you are not fooling anyone who has small engine experience.

That engine is typical of hundreds of thousands of engines, IS NOT SPECIAL, does hold approx. 1-1/2 qts. of oil, was started off 1/2 qt. low and probably run at slow to moderate speed across step grade, engine not being able to lube properly at low speeds, pressure lubed engines draw from a "well" which has at least 1/2" high sides, while slinger picks up from right at bottom, pressure lube can not pick up oil that is not there.

No engine loyalty having 3 Kohlers and 4 B&S but do have over 60 years of small engine experience.

One of the most revered, sought after, long lived engines there is is the Kohler K341 which has an even more primitive lube system than that B&S.

AS I said in the other thread, both Honda and Kohler have splash lubed engines in the line up.

Walt Conner
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:30 AM   post #11 of 26
Walt 2002
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Taken directly from the Operator's Manual for B&S model 287707-0220-1

" Oil Capacity - Engine without oil filter holds approximately 1-1/2 quarts (48 ounces; 1.4 liters). Use high quality detergent oil classified SF, SG, Sh, SJ or higher, Do not use special additives. SAE Viscosity Grades 40 degrees up SAE30."

Walt Conner
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:32 AM   post #12 of 26
hankll
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Agree with Walt on this and any other engine. Perhaps, the professional mechanic aspect of the rebuild should be looked at as the culprit. Briggs couldn't be in business if the slinger system was a flat land usage type system, only. Bear in mind if you are doing hill climb mowing that it would be a common sense practice to allow the mower some recuperative time on the flat part of your yard, otherwise it might be best to invest in some goats for the hills side areas.

Also, with any new engine rebuild, there should have been a break in period of operation. I presume you did that for several hours of some "normal" running, first.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:42 AM   post #13 of 26
rscurtis
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

If you lost a piston/cylinder assembly, something else is the problem besides lubrication. The first parts to suffer for lack of lube is usually a rod bearing, followed by the upper main or counterbalance in a splash lubed engine. The piston and cylinder assembly require little more than a mist of oil for proper lubrication- witness the longevity of many two stroke engines. You may want to disassemble the engine to see what really went wrong.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:23 AM   post #14 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

"Well did not bother reading all the rant but the simple fact is you are not fooling anyone who has small engine experience." Walt

Walt, this 'rant' as you call it is valid. I have no reason to 'fool' anyone. What motive, and what would I gain, when I do not sell, service, have company stock or have anything else to do with any other brand? That is, I'm long retired and do not work in small engines anymore! In addition, before moving here I was a Briggs & Stratton collector with engines dating back to late 20's or early 30's.

"That engine is typical of hundreds of thousands of engines, IS NOT SPECIAL, does hold approx. 1-1/2 qts. of oil, was started off 1/2 qt. low and probably run at slow to moderate speed across step grade, engine not being able to lube properly at low speeds, pressure lubed engines draw from a "well" which has at least 1/2" high sides, while slinger picks up from right at bottom, pressure lube can not pick up oil that is not there."

The engine was NOT started off 1/2 quart low. I filled to dipstick, which was more than 1 quart, considerably less than 2 quarts, therefore about 1 quart of oil. That's why I said 1 quart.

RE: 'Special' is that when ordering parts for a 28 c.i. engine by serial/model number through a couple of vendors, according to them not me, there were some kind of differences in this engine. I have no idea because I'm not in the business anymore and didn't spend hours comparing IPL's for all of Brigg's engines. I had to call them and walk it through with parts department to get correct parts.

"and probably run at slow to moderate speed across step grade, engine not being able to lube properly at low speeds, pressure lubed engines draw from a "well" which has at least 1/2" high sides, while slinger picks up from right at bottom, pressure lube can not pick up oil that is not there."

No, on the contrary, because of the steep hills it's necessary to run engine rpms at least 3/4 throttle, as stated, in order to have the power to climb the hills. Ground speed is low, as gear slector is in lowest setting, engine is rev'ing at 3/4, so you're entirely mistaken there.

The problem is that the slinger cannot pick up oil at steep angles because oil is piled somewhere else in pan. I have to look at internals again to see what machine attitude or angle causes starvation, whether it's when front or rear is too high, or if even worse, left side or right side when side hilling.

At some tractor angle, before roll over or stalling, in low gear at 3/4 throttle, oil slinger is starved for oil.

"No engine loyalty having 3 Kohlers and 4 B&S but do have over 60 years of small engine experience."

Are you in any way affiliated with Briggs & Stratton?

"One of the most revered, sought after, long lived engines there is is the Kohler K341 which has an even more primitive lube system than that B&S.

AS I said in the other thread, both Honda and Kohler have splash lubed engines in the line up."

The problem is not splash oiling per se. It is in using the engine design in garden or other tractors that are capable of being operated, in NORMAL USE, for long periods at extreme angles. Then the inferior splash oiling fails, starving at least cylinder for oil causing extremely premature wear and destruction.

This engine is not suitable for use in riding mowers/tractors that operate on hills. I have the proof here.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:43 AM   post #15 of 26
XLerate
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Default Re: Briggs 14.5 hp engine rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by hankll View Post
Agree with Walt on this and any other engine. Perhaps, the professional mechanic aspect of the rebuild should be looked at as the culprit. Briggs couldn't be in business if the slinger system was a flat land usage type system, only. Bear in mind if you are doing hill climb mowing that it would be a common sense practice to allow the mower some recuperative time on the flat part of your yard, otherwise it might be best to invest in some goats for the hills side areas.

Also, with any new engine rebuild, there should have been a break in period of operation. I presume you did that for several hours of some "normal" running, first.
"Perhaps, the professional mechanic aspect of the rebuild should be looked at as the culprit."

What do you mean by that statement? Does it contribute anything to analysis of cause of this problem? Is it intended as a backhand insult?

"Bear in mind if you are doing hill climb mowing that it would be a common sense practice to allow the mower some recuperative time on the flat part of your yard, otherwise it might be best to invest in some goats for the hills side areas."

There is no reason whatsoever mechanically to commonly allow 'recuperative time on the flat part of yard' if an engine is adequate to the task that tractor is capable of! What would be common sense is to not use an inferior splash oiling type system in a tractor that can cause oil starvation in NORMAL USE!

It is the common sense on the part of Briggs and MTD that is lacking here, not in the owner/operator usage.

And no, Hank, I'm no goat roper here. The bears, mountain lions & bobcats would eat them anyway.

"Also, with any new engine rebuild, there should have been a break in period of operation. I presume you did that for several hours of some "normal" running, first."

As a matter of fact your presumption, there at least, is correct. I did break in the engine at low speed for a period of 2-3 hours before operating it at 3/4 throttle, and did not operate engine at full throttle at any time during the 16 hours before disastrous failure.
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