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Property Line Question

14K views 80 replies 30 participants last post by  Bill7 
#1 ·
I'm having a bit of a disagreement with my one neighbor about my property line. We bought our house two years ago, we have a long skinny lot 110' wide by approx 1500' deep. On the north side (long side) I have a neighbors house and we both know where the property line is as his property was surveyed in 2003. On the south side we have corn field, this is also the side where my 110' width has been encroached upon. I did some quick measuring with my 100' tape measure, and the front of my property is roughly 76 feet wide and the back is roughly 90' wide. So "technically" i've lost a good swath of my land. The neighbor saw me measuring in his field and blew a gasket on me last night. He told me that even though it might be mine he has been farming it long enough that it's his now. I plan on getting surveyed before he plants this year, but does he have any ground to stand on by saying it'll still be his land. This is my first house so I've never had to deal with these problems before. I pay taxes on the property, can he legally just take it without having it reassesed, or purchasing it from me. I tried being neighborly about it when we talked last night, but he made me out to be the bad guy who was trying to screw him over, but he was also the first person I met when we moved in, he made sure he came over and told me where our property line was, which now I sorta see as his way of keeping me from poking around. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
#4 ·
Hire a Surveyor and put all the questions to fact then discuss the actual property line and ask if the encroaching neighbor would like to pay rent that swath.. :dunno: It's funny how the implements stretch a field or two.. I've seen a few such cases in the past.. Usually a friendly discussion with the property owner before hand can resolve any problems but this guy is pushing the issue. It's worth a few bucks to set him straight.. JMO

It's your call.. If you plan to put up posts, fence or any structure you need to contact you local zoning official as there are regulations restricting the set-back/ placement of such things.. :goodl:
 
#5 ·
the house next to me has been sold 5 times since we have been here,

2 of the new residents have challenged my property line, one was not

polite at all. he lost his argument after he paid for a survey. in your neighbors

case there are a lot of dependencies i would consult a real estate atty

in your area and get some legal info... some neighbors can get carried

away.
 
#6 ·
Get it surveyed, have the surveyor stake it. Then you have to assess the impact of having a corn field on your property. At that point, you will need to better understand your state, and possibly county laws and practices. In some places there are practices that authorize continued easement for crossing another's property after a significant number of years doing it. I've never heard of any place that conveys ownership of deeded property due to years of use.

FWIW, I'd let surveyors and civil servants be the communicators of this information rather than attempt rational and logical conversation with an irrational, illogical neighbor.
 
#8 ·
Get the survey and then stand your ground. Let the neighbor know he cannot farm your property. If he tills it send a registered letter notifing him to cease and desist. If that doesn't stop him call the cops the next time he cross the line, it is trespassing.

As long as you have not abandoned the property he cannot claim it as his, no matter how long he has been allowed to farm it.
 
#9 ·
He told me that even though it might be mine he has been farming it long enough that it's his now.
I suspect he's dead wrong. He's probably talking about "Adverse Possession." But - in order to hold up in court he would have to prove he used your land for X amount of years, you KNEW about it, you told him NOT too, and he did it anyway. If he's been doing it, and you never told him not too, or perhaps did not even realize he was on your land - he CANNOT use Adverse Possession. The main part of this land-law is the "adverse" part. That does not start until you've told him to stop and he refuses - which might be now. Then - it takes 7-10 years to "kick in."

By the way- survey lines prove nothing. A survey is just a "professional opinion" and nothing more. Your deeded boundaries are the best proof if properly described in your deed. You can get two surveys done by two different licensed surveyors and get lines that do not agree.

Another way to lose land ownership rights is by "easement by prescription." That happens when the public uses your land for X amount of years and you permit it. Same for a town highway department. If they decide to widen a road and don't ask permission -and no one challenges them - after X amount of years it becomes a part of the public highway. you still own it but lose rights to keep anyone out.
 
#10 ·
You need to have a Boundry survey done. This is a legally binding, certified survey by a state licensed company that will be entered into your county autitor records. Usually used for land splits but when a question arises about who owns what, its the go to survey. I had one done in 1999 when a split my property and it cost $800.
Most companies use GPS but backed up the old fashoned way. The property west of me lost 20ft, the property east of me, lost a foot. I had owned my property for 8yrs at the time and both properties were owned by the same people for over 10yrs and thought like your farmer, but both lost.
 
#27 ·
You need to have a Boundry survey done. This is a legally binding, certified survey by a state licensed company that will be entered into your county autitor records.
Legally binding where? In what state? I've got experience with this in Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Colorado and Florida. It those states at the least, a survey done by a state licensed surveyor is JUST a profession opinion and is NOT legally binding. If you claim to live in a state where a survey showing boundaries is legally binding - then what happens when it gets surveyed twice by two different professionals - and the two surveyors disagree? I've seen that happen many times. In those situations - a judge either decides - or asks for compromise and mutual agreement between the landowners involved.

Tell me what state in the USA regards a survey done by a licensed surveyor as legally binding. I'm very interested but at this point - do not believe it.
 
#31 ·
Re: Who do you think should decide?

In those situations - a judge either decides - or asks for compromise and mutual agreement between the landowners involved.
QUOTE]

I don't want to enflame this discussion, but I find it hard to believe there is no legal, definative way to establish property boundries, other than a judge's best guess.
Many legal matters are made by "best guess." When we find someone guilty of murder and put him/her to death - it's done by "best guess."

And what/who do you suppose the final say would be if not a judge when land owners cannot reach agreement? Name me one state in the USA that regards a licensed surveyor's work as the "final word." Bet you can't find one. A survey will be used as evidence to help decide a case - but not always taken as proof. That would be silly. What if you had 2 or 3 surveys that were all slightly different?

Not all properties are well defined. Some older parts of the USA use poorly defined British Land Patents from the 1600s as "starting points" or "baselines" for surveys. Other states that got settled later have neat quarter-sections - or something similar that were surveyed much more recently. Heck - even the Statue of Liberty and island it sits on is in question right now.

A licensed surveyor is supposed to use established baselines when possible and feasible. He/she is also supposed to do a deed search and follow boundary lines back into the history of the land. Sometimes marks are as crude as "blaze mark on a hemlock tree" in 1795 (like on one of my deeds).

So yes - often two surveyor will do a survey on the same land and come up with two sets of boundaries. One might use some baselines and the other might use lines from his prior surveys of adjacent lands. And - NONE of them are legally binding. In that case - either the land owners involved in the dispute reach an agreement or compromise - OR - a judge and/or court makes the decision for them. I've got forest and farm land in northern Michigan that got it's boundaries established by court order 10 years ago because of such a mess. And Michigan is a newer state with well defined sections of land -unlike here in old New York State.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for all the info so far, I'm going to talk to a surveyor tonight after work. My neighbor on the north side showed me where the steel tubes for the property corners were last night, i'm gonna dig down to them and remeasure just to make sure. Hopefully a survey will end this, but I've got a feeling it won't. We were actually pretty friendly neighbors, but our "conversation" last night opened my eyes to a few things. I'm pretty sure no one ever gave him permission to farm the property, i just think over the years he's taken a foot or two every year, maybe not on purpose, but then again you never know. That's how this whole thing got started, I was walking the dog one night and noticed that he had disked right up to a tree on my property, the same tree I made three passes on the mower with last summer before i reached the edge of the field. I dont plan on putting up a fence, maybe some trees and landscape boulders to prevent this from happening again.
 
#12 ·
Wasn't your property surveyed hen you bought it? If you have a mortgage it would have had to been done. Did you use a title co. for closing?
 
#13 ·
I have had my house refinanced 3 times since we got married 14 years ago..........for various reasons. I have NEVER had to have it resurveyed.
 
#15 ·
...can he legally just take it without having it reassesed, or purchasing it from me. ...

Yes, it's called "adverse possession". Adverse possession law varies somewhat from state to state. But there are a lot of common aspects to the law between states.

If you only recently purchased the property, and he had been farming it in an open and notorious way under prior owners, and continued to do so under you, he may indeed have a strong claim to the land. However, normally he would have to assert that legal claim formally in land court, in order to establish its validity. Generally, until he proves that claim to the satisfaction of the court, he does not officially own the land. He must go through the hoops first. Until then, ownership of the land is disputed.

You REALLY need to consult an attorney ASAP. In order to have a chance at defeating his claim, there are formalities that you will have to undertake quickly to establish your rights of ownership. Paying taxes on the land is helpful, but there have been cases where this has not been enough. It is unfortunate that you did not serve notice to him right away upon purchasing the land, but you don't want to delay any further.

Good luck, and get going!
 
#16 ·
Generally a house/property sale that has been previously surveyed will not get surveyed every time it sells.

Get it surveyed and then get those landscape boulders placed, preferably LARGE boulders. :)

I have a neighbor who was doing something similar but with his lawn mower, cutting further and further onto our property. I eventually had to go out and place a stake every 50ft along almost 1000' feet of property line, seriously! That was followed by a nice chat. At one point he even moved those stakes over about 3ft in one section to mow around trees that were on his side but the branches came over on my side. He wanted to drive in a circle around the tree cutting a 5ft swath on my side of the property. Had to have the chat again and a couple more times over a few years but it has finally settled down.

Don't back down. You bought it, it's yours. Make him prove otherwise.

Would love to see pictures of the area inquestion!

((grabbing the popcorn and waiting for updates))
 
#17 ·
get the survey and see what it says, as pointed out earlier every survey can show different lines depending on who did it. so it could be just as easily be that the farmer is right and your other neighbor is wrong! i doubt it, but there is a possibility.

as to adverse possession, the law varies widely state to state. in some states both parties have to KNOW about it and allow it to happen while not granting permission for anywhere from 5 to 20 years. in others(here in MS for instance) NEITHER party can be aware of it. if my neighbor knowingly encroaches on my land for years while i think it is his, he cannot claim AP. but if he thinks it is his, and i do too, then later we out different then he can claim it and fight for it.

if your farmer claimed AP on it prior to you buying your home, then you can go after the seller since knowingly or not they commited fraud by deeding you land that was not theirs to deed. but i'm willing to lay odds this is not the case, he is just trying to bully you.
 
#19 ·
in fact the 2 houses across the street were built by the same owner,

after some time one was sold and the buyer was told that the property

line was here,,,, the buyer lived with that for quite some time, for

one reason or another he had it surveyed and found out that his

property was actually about 80 feet further out than he was led

to believe. i got this first hand from the owner. people do funny things.
 
#20 ·
Again thanks for the insight, the adverse possession thing is gonna be tricky since his family has been farming the land for longer than 20 yrs. We bought our house through a mortgage company and we used a title office for closing. I'm not sure why there wasn't a survey done when we bought it, at the time it didn't occur to me to ask, if i move again i'll definitely have that included. I talked to the survey company, he's going to look my info up and get back to me with a quote. The surveyor said that sometimes the deed varies from what the assessing department has on file. If the survey is wrong in the other direction I'm going to own part of my neighbors house and garage, i can always use more garage space.
 
#21 ·
If your other neighbor has been encroaching the property long enough to establish a garage and residence on it -- they may well have taken it by adverse possession too. So much depends on the law of your state.

That is why it's very important to hire a lawyer to advise you. A lawyer may be able to suggest a course of action that would foreclose the neighbors' claims against your property, before they can file those claims. You really need to outmaneuver them if you hope to prevail. You can pretty much assume your farming neighbor right now is looking into what he needs to do to formally take your property.
 
#23 ·
Well I think Wylie Minimarket should back taxes for all them years. That is the way the Government will think and put the poor guy out of business and in jail until payed. :sidelaugh:sidelaugh
 
#24 ·
Have seen this many times.I farm my self and I am respectful to property owners who have homes that border our farms.

However up until last summer I worked partime for a large farm opertion that did not respect there neighbors.Every year they would get a few inches closer and closer into the property owners grass.It is acctually very easy to do and not even realize it.If when they till the line between field and lawn and there is not a small unworked area between dirt and grass.Then he is farming you property over time.

Every spring when they work the ground.Then if they plant the first row to close and they cultivate and then in the fall if they do fall tillage.That is 3 times a season they can take a extra inch or two per year.If there right up against your grass and not leaving a small strip between grass and tilled dirt.
 
#25 ·
I'm still waiting for the surveyor to call me back, not sure how long it takes to research, it may be a few days. I grew up in the country, dad and grandpa both farmed, i was actually really happy we found a house with a field on one side as we didn't have to have neighbors, and i liked the idea of having a farmer for a neighbor since i grew up around farmers. Gonna pick up some fertilizer tonight for the yard and hopefully enjoy the weekend.
 
#29 · (Edited)
You might want to also check with your local zoning authority. If there is a requirement for a MINIMUM of 100' of frontage (which is fairly common in some rural areas), there is no way that he can lay claim to any property that put your lot below that minimum, no matter how long he's had possesion. Even if he's had use of the land for 20 years, the proof of that usage is upon him to prove and not on you to disprove.

EDIT My neighbor recently had his land surveyed, because he was giving a lot to his daughter as a weding present. When I came home from work, I saw the surveyor's stake about 5' into my lawn. After dinner, I was out for a walk and noticed that the stake was at the edge of the lawn. When I asked him about it several days later, his reply was, " I didn't want you telling me that I had to mow that grass." That's a good neighbor.
 
#32 ·
I'm learning so much from you all, i can see that this is a touchy subject to everyone. I'm just happy it's staying civil, on any other forum we'd have descended into chaos already.
 
#34 ·
I know I'm right but . . as I stated earlier . . . situations can differ a lot.

If you have a small piece of land that was recently taken from a larger well defined parcel and all the corners are well marked - it's pretty hard for anyone to dispute. If it's very recent , it will not only have corner marks but also coordinates that can be verified with GPS. I'm talking about disputing original boundaries and not any new claims of adverse use or ownership.

Obviously when there IS a dispute - there are people with different opinions based on the same set of facts. This often happens in areas where established baselines are vague - or very far away. Where I live in NY, I've got around 100 acres that show up as 7 different tax map parcels. The nearest established "baseline" is 30 miles away. So - you can imagine how impractical it would be for a surveyor to measure 30 miles to verify. What is usually done in this sort of case is - the surveyor compares adjacent and nearby properties - especially those that were surveyed. More especially surveys that were high profile - like governent land, a State highway, etc. He will also walk in areas where lines ought to be and look for signs of use/borders over the years. That can be stone walls, old wire fence grown into trees, etc. It is not exact science and often no one will ever know for sure. Two of my deeds - written 1790 to 1820 - give borders as a town road and high water mark of a mill-pond. Since then the road has been moved at least three times and the mill-pond has been gone since 1850.
Also note that often a rural area will have one popular surveyor for a given area. Since he/she has done most of the local surveys - the work is cheaper then if done by others because it uses already established lines from prior surveys on other properties. Well - what do you suppose happens when this surveyor has made a few mistakes over the years? Sometimes they carry over into the new surveys. Where I live the surveyor in town is much cheaper then anyone else. Several of the non-local surveyors charge much more because they refuse to use exisiting survey lines done by the local guy. So, they have to do much more work using distant baselines. And - usually their "from scatch" surveys do not agree with the local ones. Logging disputes are the biggest cause of this around here. Most always wind up in court.
 
#35 ·
I know someone who was trying to sell a house that they had moved out of. The real estate agent was showing someone the house, and the real estate agent went into her car to get something and a nieghbor came over and told the young couple that wanted to buy it "Listen, me and the people who lived here before didn't have any problems, you even come close to my property, and there will be a problem." and then he went on showing them a bunch of fake land markers he put into the ground increasing his property by about 10 feet. The young couple didn't buy the house, probably due to him.
 
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