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Old 04-04-2012, 04:09 PM   post #1 of 18
Curly69
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Default Bug control ?

OK over the last two years I've planted about 6 apple trees, 2 pear trees an a few peach trees. What organic product do you use for bugs? I have these little things that look like little flies eating my leaves.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:26 PM   post #2 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

I have been reading about Organic Diatamaceous Earth (Similar to what you use in pool filters) Its supposed to act like little glass shards that can hurt bugs. I just got some apple trees so I wont be needing anything for probably a couple of years yet. But might try some on the garden this year.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:17 AM   post #3 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

I have an orchard myself.

I just completed a fence for the additional 27 trees coming this month.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=234037


If you knew exactly what pest you are dealing with I may be able to help. The biggest problem with fruit crops such as apples is not bugs but fungus. There are phermone traps for coddling moths that will disrupt the reproductive cycle of them. Sticky traps are used for apple maggots.

I am not an organic type of guy. In my opinion high quality apples require spray.

If you truly want to have organic apples, you need to plant apples that are genetically immune to scab and pests.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:35 AM   post #4 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly69 View Post
What organic product do you use for bugs? I have these little things that look like little flies eating my leaves.
Long answer: As c5rulz said, you need to ID specifically what pest or disease(s) you are trying to combat before you can select a method of control. Arguably the most important thing you can do is implementing an Integrated Pest Management approach. IPM encourages a broader look at what can be done to solve your pest problem than simply selecting the organic pesticide with the broadest range of efficacy and using it as a cure-all. One of the first steps in any IPM system is identifying what pests or diseases you are up against and looking at all available cultural, biological, mechanical, and chemical controls then evaluating which is best based on your needs.

Short answer: A pyrethrin based liquid such as Pyganic EC 1.4

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I have been reading about Organic Diatamaceous Earth (Similar to what you use in pool filters) Its supposed to act like little glass shards that can hurt bugs.
DE is somewhat effective against bugs with exoskeletons (ants, roaches, beetles, etc.) because it gets into their joints and, as you stated, physically injures them to the point of death. It will quickly wash off the first time it rains so I don't see it as a very effective pesticide for an arboricultural application like fruit trees though. I have used it around the drip line of my house to deter ants and I use it sometimes in the garden to mark off rows and plant spacing not because it is a pesticide but because it is an inert white powder that shows up well against the soil. One final caution about using DE- You can get it on your skin or even eat it without much concern but if you breath in the powdered form of it you can expect to spend a few days coughing up blood.

Last edited by Handsomeryan; 04-19-2012 at 07:37 AM. Reason: removed extra text.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:47 AM   post #5 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

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[ One final caution about using DE- You can get it on your skin or even eat it without much concern but if you breath in the powdered form of it you can expect to spend a few days coughing up blood.
Yeah buddy-sounds like something I'd love to have in the garden--not!I heard a guy say (about having a worm or two in the top of ear of corn) "I the bugs won't eat it-I don't want it neither".Kinda sounds right to me.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:52 AM   post #6 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

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Originally Posted by Handsomeryan View Post
[B] you need to ID specifically what pest or disease(s) you are trying to combat before you can select a method of control. .
Your state extension is your friend. Your tax dollars pay for them. Catch a sample of your pest and take it in to have it IDed.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:09 AM   post #7 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

OK I have trees planted from 5 years back up until a few weeks ago. So far there are these bugs that look like little black flies. They don't move very fast and in the cool you can just crunch them.
A neighbor told me they may be harmless pear slug flies? Anyway I like staying away from chemical unless it's a last choice.
I have tried the diatamaceous earth in my garden and seemed to help somewhat and was pretty cheap.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:17 AM   post #8 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

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Yeah buddy-sounds like something I'd love to have in the garden--not!I heard a guy say (about having a worm or two in the top of ear of corn) "I the bugs won't eat it-I don't want it neither".Kinda sounds right to me.
Dude this is so true. I used to stop at fruit and veggie stands all the time. One time I got so sick thru up and other things for days until the wife took me to the hospital. The whites of my eyes turned blood red. I was there for 3 days, I had gotten some type of pesticide poisoning. The dr. said another day without treatment and I would have been dead. They had me on IV's til I went home.The dr. who was of foreign decent told me if you buy fruit and veggies from outside and there's no bugs DON"T BUY THEM. It's true if it's 80 degrees and sunny and no bugs on the fruit there must be some tough stuff on them to keep the bugs away.
That's when I went organic. The taste of fruits and veggies that aren't forced grown is just so much better.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:37 AM   post #9 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

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I heard a guy say (about having a worm or two in the top of ear of corn) "I the bugs won't eat it-I don't want it neither".Kinda sounds right to me.
While I can appreciate the sentiment, I think that is a poorly reasoned argument.

Simply put: People aren't the same as bugs. Many things are a deadly poison to certain organisms while being completely inert to others. Bugs have different skin coverings, different circulatory systems, different methods of digestion, different nervous systems, different reproductive tracts, in fact people and bugs share precious little anatomy or physiology.

Even between more closely related organisms like dogs and cats there can be huge differences in effect from exposure to the same product. The insecticide I recommended above is considered, if used as directed, to be pretty harmless to humans and dogs because our bodies are very good at removing it before it builds up to a level that will cause us harm. Cats on the other hand can not tolerate it as their body physiology is different. There have been cases of cats becoming very ill or even dying when pet owners used dog-specific flea/tick preventative containing this compound on their cats. That doesn't mean they were putting something dangerous on their dog, it means they were misusing a dog-specific product on a non-dog animal.

Likewise, DE is harmless if used as directed but if you decide to ignore the label and instead throw handfuls of it into the air intake of your leaf blower to make a cloud of it you will likely hurt yourself. (If anyone tries this at least get some video for youtube.)
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:28 AM   post #10 of 18
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I had gotten some type of pesticide poisoning.
I don't mean to sound as if I'm doubting that you fell ill after eating farm stand produce because I'm sure you were. It is however extremely unlikely that you would become that deathly ill from any pesticide just from eating the trace amount that would persist on a couple pieces of fresh produce.

The most plausible explanation based on your description of your illness is simply that you got food poisoning. Most likely Salmonella or E. coli which can both be transmitted by eating improperly handled fresh produce. This has nothing to do with any pesticides that may have been applied but rather has a much grosser, albeit organic cause, which is generally human or animal fecal contamination of the soil or irrigation water used to grow the crops. Either of these or a handful of other pathogens will make you ill, sometimes deathly so, and it is completely reasonable to believe you could contract it from eating produce from a farm stand.

I'm a licensed pesticide applicator and as a part of my job I have to teach a pesticide safety training class to anyone who comes in contact with the plants here at my lab. There are 2 distinct types of pesticide poisoning (A) single dose exposure and (B) cumulative exposure. For the overwhelming majority of all pesticides used in the US to make an otherwise healthy adult person deathly ill would require a single dose much higher than I would expect to see on a couple pieces of fruit/vegetables (especially if you rinsed them off with clean water before eating them). Cumulative exposure is a much bigger worry to most of us because it isn't that trivial amount of residue on one apple that hurts you but the buildup in your system of that tiny dose from every apple you eat this month that does the real harm.

It is fair to say that without knowing all of the details of your situation I can not definitively say what did or did not cause your illness. If your doctor believes that this was indeed a case of chemical poisoning and not just food-borne illness then you need to inform your state department of agriculture though. This is certainly not something to be taken lightly because "you think it was the pesticide that made you sick" because the penalties for non-compliance with federal pesticide application laws can range from fines starting in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and some include prison time too. Because of these penalties, professional pesticide applicators (such as myself and like most farms employ) take this stuff very seriously and it isn't the wild wild west of people just applying whatever whenever to their crops anymore.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:46 PM   post #11 of 18
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Default Re: Bug control ?

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Originally Posted by Handsomeryan View Post
I don't mean to sound as if I'm doubting that you fell ill after eating farm stand produce because I'm sure you were. It is however extremely unlikely that you would become that deathly ill from any pesticide just from eating the trace amount that would persist on a couple pieces of fresh produce.

The most plausible explanation based on your description of your illness is simply that you got food poisoning. Most likely Salmonella or E. coli which can both be transmitted by eating improperly handled fresh produce. This has nothing to do with any pesticides that may have been applied but rather has a much grosser, albeit organic cause, which is generally human or animal fecal contamination of the soil or irrigation water used to grow the crops. Either of these or a handful of other pathogens will make you ill, sometimes deathly so, and it is completely reasonable to believe you could contract it from eating produce from a farm stand.

I'm a licensed pesticide applicator and as a part of my job I have to teach a pesticide safety training class to anyone who comes in contact with the plants here at my lab. There are 2 distinct types of pesticide poisoning (A) single dose exposure and (B) cumulative exposure. For the overwhelming majority of all pesticides used in the US to make an otherwise healthy adult person deathly ill would require a single dose much higher than I would expect to see on a couple pieces of fruit/vegetables (especially if you rinsed them off with clean water before eating them). Cumulative exposure is a much bigger worry to most of us because it isn't that trivial amount of residue on one apple that hurts you but the buildup in your system of that tiny dose from every apple you eat this month that does the real harm.

It is fair to say that without knowing all of the details of your situation I can not definitively say what did or did not cause your illness. If your doctor believes that this was indeed a case of chemical poisoning and not just food-borne illness then you need to inform your state department of agriculture though. This is certainly not something to be taken lightly because "you think it was the pesticide that made you sick" because the penalties for non-compliance with federal pesticide application laws can range from fines starting in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and some include prison time too. Because of these penalties, professional pesticide applicators (such as myself and like most farms employ) take this stuff very seriously and it isn't the wild wild west of people just applying whatever whenever to their crops anymore.
Since you mentioned apples. I live in Apple country with apple orchards everyplace for miles and miles. I have not eaten an apple or piece of fruit grown around here in years and never will, that's just me. Besides my apples with no chemicals at all taste a 100 times better as do all non forced grown foods. I as a laymen so to speak find it hard to believe that these chemicals don't find there way into the product, where I live they spray everyday some time twice a day. Start at 4:30am and go until 10:00pm. I in my little uneducated head can't believe that these chemicals don't land on the ground then get sucked up thru the roots into the apples or peaches.
Now I know where there a few fields that haven't been treated for 25 years in the woods that I will go pick apples from. They don't look pretty, smaller but the taste can't be beat.
As far as what I had they just told me it was chemical poisoning of some sort, it weakened my kidneys and liver for a while. The dr. came to the conclusion because of the amounts of fruits and veggies I was eating and not washing then.
Thanks for the information and nice conversating.
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:03 PM   post #12 of 18
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I was told these and the little fly like creatures are related.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:32 PM   post #13 of 18
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I also have a small orchard...apples peaches nectarines pears.....My biggest problem aside from the squirrels (Which I fixed with a dog) is the Plum Curculio. It's a little black weevil, that not only eats the fruit, but lays eggs in the rest causing the fruit to drop. They are a huge problem in NJ, Most commercial orchards spray chem. Pesticides. Part of the reason I got into gardening is top have healthier stuff for my kids to eat, so I try to steer clear of pesticide. As a result I tried everthing you can think of with no luck. Last year I started hearing about a product called SURROUND WP. I'm not sure if its certified organic but it's Just Kaolin Clay, You buy it buy the 50lb bag. Mix 3 cups per gallon of water, and use you tank sprayer to spray it on. Kind of a pain because you have to reapply every week, and after heavy rain. But so far it seems to be working I have no bug scars so far and the birds don't even seem to like it..... Heres a website for it.
http://www.arbico-organics.com/produ...rpillars-moths
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:53 PM   post #14 of 18
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I also have a small orchard...apples peaches nectarines pears.....My biggest problem aside from the squirrels (Which I fixed with a dog) is the Plum Curculio. It's a little black weevil, that not only eats the fruit, but lays eggs in the rest causing the fruit to drop. They are a huge problem in NJ, Most commercial orchards spray chem. Pesticides. Part of the reason I got into gardening is top have healthier stuff for my kids to eat, so I try to steer clear of pesticide. As a result I tried everthing you can think of with no luck. Last year I started hearing about a product called SURROUND WP. I'm not sure if its certified organic but it's Just Kaolin Clay, You buy it buy the 50lb bag. Mix 3 cups per gallon of water, and use you tank sprayer to spray it on. Kind of a pain because you have to reapply every week, and after heavy rain. But so far it seems to be working I have no bug scars so far and the birds don't even seem to like it..... Heres a website for it.
http://www.arbico-organics.com/produ...rpillars-moths
Sounds interest I will check it out.
So I grew up in Jersey until I just couldn't afford it any longer. Where you located? I grew up in Ocean County along the Beach then built a home in Jackson. WOW the taxes and car insurance were murder.
I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Western NC and couldn't be happier, my taxes are about 5% of what they were up there.
Thanks
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:25 PM   post #15 of 18
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I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Western NC and couldn't be happier, my taxes are about 5% of what they were up there.
Thanks
quiet man, you'll have them all down here!
seriously, the cumulative effects of chemical in our food supply is a very serious issue. As was stated earlier, the USDA and EPA don't mess around with people that disobey laws and mishandle chemicals. I hold an applicator's license for turf and ornamentals, the test to obtain this license is no joke. Personally, I don't spray any poison directly on my garden, instead I go out about ten feet from the garden and spray Lesco Cross check plus a good 20 or 30 foot swath all the way around it. this keeps most bugs out of the garden and gives me piece of mind that I'm not pumping stuff into my and my family's bodies that shouldn't be there. Of course the Starbucks habit my wife and daughter have probably counteract all my efforts.
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