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Engine runs a few minutes and dies

64K views 70 replies 14 participants last post by  bhildret 
#1 ·
I have an Ingersol 4020 tractor that is driving me nuts! The engine will start and run normally for about 3 to 5 minutes and then die like the ignition was turned off. Sometimes in backfires right after it stops. If I wait about 15 seconds I can start it back up and it will run another few minutes and die again. I replaced the ignition coil, condenser, spark plug wires, and spark plugs but it didn't help. I pulled the top of the carburetor off to check the floats and every looked good. The engine seems like it runs out of gas and shuts down but the backfiring has me puzzled. There is about 740 hours on the engine. Any suggestions?
 
#3 ·
Ken,

Fuel filter is relatively new. Is the fuel tank air vent in the cap? In the winter the engine would run longer before shutting down. That is why I thought it may have been something electrical like a bad coil. Maybe a weak fuel pump? I am not that mechanically inclined which is why I am going after the easy things first :)
 
#4 ·
Well there- Your local parts supplier will love you for your support, huh? :fing20: If it soulds like the ignition is shut off, maybe it is.. Does it start right back up? If so you may have a bad ignition connection or even a bad key switch or other Safety switch issue.. If it won't start, get a test light and start @ the key switch and test/c hase the "I" wire where-ever it goes to verify 12V when the key is on to verify continuity.. Chase it down and you will find the culprit.. :goodl:
 
#5 ·
After it dies, have you taken the carb off right away? If so, is there fuel in the bowl of the carb?

Fuel filter location and type can hinder a pump's ability to move fuel. Also, the tank screen may be clogged or corroded. Basically it creates a vacuum inside the fuel line and starves the engine similarly to plugging up the gascap breather hole. A few years back I pulled my hair out with a 220 that acted close to what you describe. After regapping the points, trying a new coil, and dismantling the carb, it ended up being the screen inside the gas tank. I snapped it off, installed a filter directly below the tank, and all was well.
 
#6 ·
Well there- Your local parts supplier will love you for your support, huh? :fing20: If it soulds like the ignition is shut off, maybe it is.. Does it start right back up? If so you may have a bad ignition connection or even a bad key switch or other Safety switch issue.. If it won't start, get a test light and start @ the key switch and test/c hase the "I" wire where-ever it goes to verify 12V when the key is on to verify continuity.. Chase it down and you will find the culprit.. :goodl:

BTW--- :Welcome1:
 
#7 ·
The tank breather is the pinhole in the top of your gascap. As fuel exits, air moves in. It doesn't take much tank vacuum to choke a tractor.

BTW, Welcome to the forum.
 
#8 ·
Wow, I am getting more useful information from you guys in the past few minutes than my local Ingersol dealer has given me in the past couple of weeks. Tomorrow I will check the venting of the fuel tank and the tank screen. I thought about pulling the top of the carb off as soon as the engine dies but haven't done that yet. Would fuel starvation cause the backfiring??
 
#10 ·
Wow, I am getting more useful information from you guys in the past few minutes than my local Ingersol dealer has given me in the past couple of weeks.
Fanatical Case Ingersoll acolytes tend to be like that, lol. :trink39:
 
#9 ·
When it goes to quit on ya, give it some choke and see if it wants to keep running a bit longer. If it does then its fuel and not electrical. The best way to check the tank is to unhook the fuel line up by the engine and see how the gas pours out, if it comes out in a stead stream and doesnt falter, then look at the filter or trash in the carb. While you have the fuel line loose, you may want to go ahead and drain the tank to check for things floating around in there. I doubt if its the fuel pump since it will start back up and run. Fuel filters are cheap, just put a new one on there to rule it out.

You can rule out the gas cap just by taking it off and seeing if it still does it. If you cap is like the one on mine, its kinda hard to tell if its clogged.
 
#11 ·
I have owned Case/Ingersol tractors for the last 30 years. I can definitely understand the passion folks have for these machines and I want to keep mine running for many more years. I will try the suggestions given tomorrow and hopefully it is something simple dealing with the fuel delivery. If that is all it is then I won't even feel bad about spending the $135.00 for parts that I didn't even need:duh:

I will report back tomorrow on my findings!
 
#12 ·
Hi George, and welcome to MTF

here is another posibility I would like you to try tomorow as well, using a jumper wire with a aligator type of connector at either end, connect one end directly on the POSITIVE terminal of the IGNITION COIL and the other end directly to the BATTERY POSITIVE TERMINAL.

What that will tell us is if there is a problem in the 12 volt ignition switch or wires to the ignition coil. (They too can warm up and loose continuity and cool off and regain contact with each other)

Try running your motor for longer than a few minutes with the jumper in place BEFORE you atempt to corect anything else. I know it makes a big difference with the 12 volts directly at the coil...

Good luck

JayVee
 
#13 ·
All good suggestions to pursue. Due to the popping off the muffler when it shuts down, I tend to prioritize the 12V to the coil.

JV has recommended a good approach to this.

It it very common for the ignition swtiches in these tractors to give up the ghost at this sort of age and hours, but could easily be wiring related also. Consider the engine ignition parts to be good preventive maintenance ...

Good luck and please report back ...

Brian
 
#14 ·
OK, I attached a wire from the + battery post to the + side of the ignition coil and started the tractor. Tractor still died after running about 4 minutes.

Removed the gas cap from the tank and started the tractor. Tractor again died after running a few minutes.

Checked the screen at the bottom of the tank. Looked clean and when I detached the fuel line from the fuel pump the gas was pouring out so the screen isn't plugged.

Tried choking the engine as it was dying but that didn't have any affect either.

Had a little bit of white smoke come out of the muffler when I tried to restart the engine. After the engine died and I turned off the ignition there was a mild backfire which seemed to come from the carburetor. Can fuel delivery issues cause backfiring? I always associated backfiring with timing issues but the engine runs smooth and strong for the few minutes that it does run.
 
#21 ·
OK, I attached a wire from the + battery post to the + side of the ignition coil and started the tractor. Tractor still died after running about 4 minutes.

Tried choking the engine as it was dying but that didn't have any affect either.

After the engine died and I turned off the ignition there was a mild backfire . .
The fact that the engine backfired once you interrupted the 12 volts to the coil does not bother me, (coils will fire one last time when we cut out the primary winding charge), but you reported that it made no difference, I would suggest you try the same test, hot lead from the battery to the positive side of the coil, but this time using your other coil you said you had (I think I read that somewhere above)

The fact that the smoke came out of the carb also does not fade me too much, when you cut the 12 volts to the coil, it caused the spark and the intake valve was open at that time, causing whatever mixed fuel you had t***** in the cylender.

What I'm interested in finding out is this, We know that for any engines to run we need a Compression, You seem to have that, we need a spark, you're going to test again using a second coil, and we need fuel, when you put your hand over, or you choked the engine at time of dying, it made no difference, but was your choke plate (or Hand) wet with fuel?

If no fuel present, you still have a problem, I'm thinking vapor lock from the fuel pump to the carburator body, you must have a heat shield not in place and too much heat is making its way to the steel tube and the fuel is boiling in the line,

If however you had fuel and you still have fuel in the float bowl at time the egine dies, you have a no spark...

Do not overlook the sparkplug itself. Try and replace the plug...

Let us know


JayVee
 
#16 ·
Lean conditions cause backfire throughnthe intake. That is why several engine manufactures suggest shutting done engines at half to full throttle

Gunslingers: You are running out of fuel and when you wait a minute or so enough fuel is running into the float bowl an allowing you to restart the engine.
Dismantle and clean the carb. and ck for a sticking needle and seat. If you are careful there is no need for a "rebuild".
 
#22 ·
The spark plugs are new as is the spark plug wires. Tomorrow I will pull the top half of the carb off once the engine dies to see if there is fuel in the bowl. Hopefully I can get the top off fast enough to determine if the bowl went dry or close to it.

When I choked the engine to try and keep it running I failed to check the choke plate to see if it was wet or not. I will determine that tomorrow.

I will also try the old coil again. One reason I replaced it was because one the high voltage receptacles that the plug wire is inserted into was full of corrosion. The other one was clean and shiny. Don't know how it may have corroded since the plug wire boot was never removed from the coil in all the years I have had the tractor (about 14 years).
 
#23 ·
The spark plugs are new as is the spark plug wires. Tomorrow I will pull the top half of the carb off once the engine dies to see if there is fuel in the bowl. Hopefully I can get the top off fast enough to determine if the bowl went dry or close to it.
You can take your time removing the top plate of the carburator, (fuel won't evaporate that quickly) and use a shop rag to lay the top plate on, or only lift enough to see inside the fuel bowl portion, (Hot engine, and fuel vapors don't mix)
Do that outside if you can, not in an enclosed shed like mine...(mine is small)

ok we'll see the result of that tomorow,,,

Back to the Hockey game...
 
#24 ·
Tried the old coil again with the + side connected directly to the + side of the battery. Engine still died after about 5 minutes of running.

Pulled the top of the carburetor off after the engine quit and there was fuel in the bowl. I don't know how much should be in there but the level of fuel was about 1/4" below the top of the bottom half of the carb once I removed the top half.

I noticed when the engine dies fuel is being spit out of the top of the carburetor.
 
#26 ·
:duh: Wow!

You got me puzzled, and I am in cline to agree with (Kcunningam) inthe post above, and you need to clean your carburator, CAUSE, the ONLY thing left that kills that engine now is the possibility that you have too much fuel.

Look at it this way, we now know the things that are NOT the ones that kills the engine, but since you reported that the engine spits fuel at time of dying, It Sure sounds to mee like you have a float that can't stop the fuel pressure, and it overfills. (Strange how it takes 5 minutes to overfill...)

I even took the time to save a picture for ya! of the fuel delivery system, and was gonna ask you to check the impulse line, but you have fuel, so the pump is ok than...

Clean that carb, and report back to us ok...Good luck
 

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#25 ·
You need to put a carb kit in that thing and make sure the needle valves are adjusted right. I guess the onan engine manual is right after all. Ill bet you a dollar that the float isnt shutting off the gas when the carb gets full. Here is a tip from a guy that chased his own carb problems. Dont waste your time with carb cleaners in spray cans, get the kind that comes in a gallon can and has a wire backet to put the parts in. Get some small diameter copper wire to clean out those fuel passages and blow it all out with air when your done.
 
#28 ·
Well there is a local Onan parts place near me that I will try and get a carb rebuilt kit from them before I attempt to take this one apart. Meanwhile I have to use this machine to pull a DR Lawn Vacuum around my yard and pick up tons of leaves that I didn't get last fall. So even if it is 5 minutes at a time I have to get that work done before I attempt to remove and rebuild the carb. I know for you guys this process is probably a piece of cake but to me it is a disaster waiting to happen :eek:
 
#29 ·
Rebuilding the carb isnt hard, i would pay someone to do it. If you arent mechanicaly inclined then do so, otherwise do it yourself. Atleast that way you know how it works. There are engine manuals on this forum that will tell you how to do it and set the needle valves.
 
#30 ·
Well I removed the exhaust manifold, intake manifold, carburetor, linkages, etc. After all that work I decided to replace the carburetor instead of rebuilding the original. So now my 4020 has a new carburetor, gaskets, fuel line, ignition coil, condenser, spark plug wires and spark plugs. The fuel filter is clean and the tank strainer is clean. And still the engine runs for about 5 minutes and dies like the ignition was turned off :crybaby: If it is something internal with the engine then it is way out of my league for fixing it. For the $350.00 I have into it for new parts I should have just taken it to a repair center and let them go at it. There may be a new JD X320 in my near future if I can't get this thing running :banghead3
 
#31 ·
Wow, that sucks. I reread thru the post but i cant remember if i saw if you have tried this or not. Right after if quits, pull the plug and touch if to the head and crank it over. If it is sparking then it could very well be a seizing engine. Then only thing i didnt see that you have replaced was the fuel pump. How is yours mounted on the tractor. If you can post some pics.
 
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