Gray market Yanmar

[Mickey]

Have decided to start looking a CUT to keep the pasture down and move some dirt from time to time.

Have noticed there are a number of gray market importers with Yanmar's for sale. Anyone have any comments on buying a used tractor of this kind?

One local "dealer" has a nice low hr (<300) YM2010D for sale with new Koyker loader (mode 120) for $8500. This is a 20+ yr old tractor but looks good and starts easily. Tires have a lot of tread but do look weathered.

What's the down side to this brand/model or gray market tractors?

[dirtybernie]

mickey. mark777 who is a member here should be able to help you. if you look through the members gallery you will see pics of his tractors. :fing32:

[jdkubotamurray]

If you gotta have a greymarket tractor, Yanmar's the best one to have, second is the kubota grey market (forget name). Sometimes, however you can get a good used compact JD or Kubota used for not alot more and that's what I'd suggest.

[jdkubotamurray]

One of the downsides is no US safety standards, but it's just like buying an older US tractor in that regard. Parts sometimes, not a big problem for Yanmar, though.

[mark777]

If you gotta have a greymarket tractor, Yanmar's the best one to have, second is the kubota grey market (forget name). Sometimes, however you can get a good used compact JD or Kubota used for not alot more and that's what I'd suggest.

jdkubotamurray pretty much nailed it.....The co-op that rebadges the Kubota is Zennoh. They used the Z in front of all their imported model numbers like ZL120, etc.

The YM2210D was manufactured between '70 and '79. It has the 2T90 two cylinder engine with the shuttle shift transmission and the D indicates 4x4. Translated manuals and almost all parts are readily available from stateside suppliers of Yanmar and other grey market tractor dealers..No ROPS or seat belts and throttle control works in the oposite direction. 3 speed PTO, cat 1 hitch, nice features, fairly large operators platform...really a nice tractor.

Is it $8,500 nice?? You just have to use your own personal tractor smarts to be sure. For instance: 300 original hours is not unheard of....but the ware on the tractor should indicate the absolute minimum on hitch pins, deck surfaces, ball joints and tie rod ends, sway chanis and all links.

The unit should sell for between $5500 - $5800 (because it's 4WD) without the FEL. This price is for a good USED Yanmar that has been detailed including belts, hoses and any mechanical imperfections addresed and repaired including oil, fluids and filter changed.

If the tractor has been reconditioned and the seller states this, ....well....look for words like unique overseas partnership, or factory reconditioned....even assembled and tested in S.E. Asia. This almost always means put together from salvaged tractors in VietNam. There has been a steady influx (thousands yearly) of these tractors....and maybe you have seen Ebay ads in the past, where you can get a 16' trailer, brush hog, tiller, boxblade AND tractor for about $5995. Those are reconditioned tractors from VietNam. I would not reccommend these tractors to anyone. They are cobbled together with any like part, regarless of it's condition, made to run and painted up real pretty.

Just like any domestic tractor, greys are as good as the dealer that supports them.

Sorry for such a lenghty post. Good luck.

Regards, Mark

[cadurning]

My SIL has a YM1500. The tractor has been trouble free for 7 years. When it gets used , it gets abused. Always left out in the weather and the oil changed when he thinks of it. As far as the parts issue, he has been able to find everything he needs easily. I fact he gets his filters at the local NAPA. He did discover that John Deere markets his same tractor, rebadged as JD and slightly different body work.

BTW isn't the Kubota also sold as a rebadged Ford New Holland?

[ducati996]

Hi Mickey,
You can get a real nice Name brand Compact for that price range with less hours!!
some models to shoot for maybe from Deere would be 4100 series from 1999 to 2001,
I see them they are out there, and are made by Yanmar for Deere....great machines

Duc

[mark777]

cadurning,

I don't believe Kubota has ever been under any other lisence. Even the Zennoh co-op is not allowed to import anything but used.

Several domestic models from about 50 HP down are imported from these manufactures:

Yanmar = John Deere
Shibura = Ford / New Holland
Iseki = White, Bolens and Massey Ferguson (late models)
Mitsubishi = Case-International, Cub Cadet, Bolens, Satoh and CAT (late models)
Hinomoto = Allis Chalmers, Massey Ferguson (early models)

A good example: I own a 1993 Massey Ferguson 1020 Standard. Great little tractor. 17 PTO and 20 engine HP. It has a Toyosha 3 cylinder and the engine (and the rest of the tractor) is (was) made for MF by Hinomoto.

Mark

[guest]

For not a lot more money you can get a John Deere 790 which is made entirely by Yanmar for Deere. It is a pretty much bullet proof & straight forward design and will give you great service for a life time. You will also have the Deere logisital support system and warranty behind it. I know several folks who own them and love them.

[Mickey]

Mark, thanks for your comments. I've read your posts about the Yanmar you rebuilt. Not sure about your mention of YM2210 as what I was looking at was the 2010D, a 3 cyl model. My info says that model was built 80-81.

This tractor is not one of the "remanufactured" ones from VN. It's clean but there is minor surface rust in a few locations. New seat, battery, fluids, etc. and as mentioned tires while almost new tread wise are weather worn.

Price wise, if you take off the cost of the new bucket, tractor is about $6200. The price, either with or without the bucket are priced at the lower end of with I see on the net. One web dealer is asking$12k for same model and same brand bucket. Have noted at least a hlf doz YM2010's on the net.

Duc, thanks for your comments. I'm not seeing that many used CUTs in the area. Three tractor dealers in the area and have only seen 3-4 older and smaller models.

JD dealer has 6-8 used 790's all with less than a hundred hrs on them but they are asking new price, new - $670. No deal here.

The Capital Press comes out tomorrow and I'm going to buy a copy and take a look. Their web site only permits you to see up to 100 ads and didn't see anything there. Capital Press is the largest Ag paper in the West and is dist everywhere in the Western half of the country. When I got out of the haying business yrs ago I listed my equip in the CP and within 24 hrs of publication I had a call from someone in Alaska wanting to buy if I could del to Seattle. If it's Ag related you'll find it in the CP.

I'm in no hurry to buy but hadn't realized there was such a market in imported used tractors.

[Mickey]

Chief, the 790's I mentioned in previos post were priced at over $13k without any attachments. I've owned several pieces of JD equip including new bailer and I'm NOT that impressed with JD. The JD name doesn't do anything for me.

[mark777]

Mickey,

Sorry I misread you model in the post...the 2010 IS a 3 cylinder 3T84H. Much smoother running engine. That, and variations of the model ran '80 to '89. The JD 790 drive trane is almost identical - the engine in JD 790 3TNE84EJK is their 2000 and later years upgrade, with very few changes.

And since I've put my glasses on :), the price does not seem to be too far out of line. Location and availability seem to impact the resale even more.

I know, by reputation, a few honest dealers in N. CA and OR, WA and you may consider calling them for comparbles.

Mark

[Mickey]

Mickey,

Sorry I misread you model in the post...the 2010 IS a 3 cylinder 3T84H. Much smoother running engine. That, and variations of the model ran '80 to '89. The JD 790 drive trane is almost identical - the engine in JD 790 3TNE84EJK is their 2000 and later years upgrade, with very few changes.

And since I've put my glasses on :), the price does not seem to be too far out of line. Location and availability seem to impact the resale even more.

I know, by reputation, a few honest dealers in N. CA and OR, WA and you may consider calling them for comparbles.

Mark

Would like the names of the dealers if you don't mind. can post here or PM.
The shop I was looking at yesterday was ernies imports. Beside having a web site I see he posts to several tractor forums. Struck me as an honest fellow and operated out of his home. Lots of inventory both new and used. Prices on implements didn't seem too bad either.

Have been also thinking about an F(x)20D. Ernie has a F22D I'm going ot ask about.

[guest]

Chief, the 790's I mentioned in previos post were priced at over $13k without any attachments. I've owned several pieces of JD equip including new bailer and I'm NOT that impressed with JD. The JD name doesn't do anything for me.

A Deere 790 4WD, Dual SCV MSRP's for $12,279

Typical discount on pricing is about 15% so that comes to about $10,680

My post had nothing to do with touting the John Deere brand name. The thread topic was looking for a Yanmar built machine. I would caution folks to be VERY careful buying grey market imports. Some may indeed be a very good deal but many are worn out models that just got a fresh coat of paint and "wish it well". For a mechanically inclined owner, this may not be an issue; but for an owner who is looking for a reliable and maintenance free (at least as much as any machine can be expected to be), a grey market machine as well as the Chinese imports may not be a good choice. That does not mean they are bad machines. It just means that it may not be a good choice for some buyers.

Base upon what Mickey was wanting to use the machine for, I personally would be looking at a Kioti LK2554 or CK 25. Kioti makes a solid machine for a VERY good price.

I have seen the LK2554 with a Koyker FEL for about $12,400.

Otherwise, as already mentioned; the used tractor market runs the spectrum of good to bad. Keep an eye out in the paper for farm auctions too. Never can tell what you may come across.

[Michael]

A neighbor has a Zen Noh ZL1501 (Kubota L1501 a similar tractor is a Kubota L175) and it is a fairly reliable tractor that fairly good little machine. He had only one minor issue with the filter screen plug up and it I repaired it in about 2 hours. This tractor is very similar to my old Kubota L185 and operates very much like mine. Thats all the experience I have with the grey markets is to what the neighbor has. He did get ROPS and a seat belt put on his and the price was fairly good.:hatsoff:

[jdkubotamurray]

I bought a JD990 4wd with 430 loader and deluxe canopy in late 2003 for $18K, sold it now, hated to, also had a 1070 and 1050, bullet proof Yanmar tractors, all. The 790 is a smaller version and is also excellent, were around 10K here then with 4wd.

[mark777]

Mickey,

Since you have already talked with Ernie and your first impression was he's a good guy...that would have been near the top of my list of honest dealers. Another (maybe too far away) and one of the most knowledgeable grey market dealers is Dave's Tractors in Red Bluff, CA. 530-528-0755....especially Yanmar.

There are good reasons concerning why you should or shouldn't buy a grey market tractor. A good used, well maintained Japanese built tractor that is as much as 50% less than it's Americanized counterpart is a very tough argument on why you would.

A misrepresented like model that has been assembled from salvaged parts, cosmetically beautified with anywhere from 0 to 100 hours on replaced meters is a good reason why you would not.

Hope you find what your looking for.

Regards, Mark

BTW: I do not think there is any comparison between a tractor made in China and a used grey market tractor from Japan.

[Mickey]

Do you know of Ernie? He doesn't buy any reconditioned tractors nor Chinese made ones. It's hard to believe there are 20 yr old tractors around with less than 500 hrs on them but from everything I read about the subject, farming practice in Japan is quite different. Saw a lot of use tractors in the Ag paper with 4k or more hrs on them. Whole different world.

Ernie also have several F2x series tractors almost ready for sale and I'm going to take a close look at these as well.

With Portland being a big seaport there seems to be quite a few operations buying these imports. Best-Used-Tractors dn in Springfield Or has a nice site with lots of info. Have a request in to them for availability of something close to the 2010D or FX20. There is also a local Co, Free manuals . com that offers a brokerage/referal service and I have a request in to them as well. They only search for units that are graded as Class A. Oh, the free manual site has a page giving the 4-5 grades these tractors clasified in to. Good piece of info for anyone looking at a used import.

Personally not interested in a pig with lipstick, it's still a pig. Playing ME for 25+ yrs will help in evaluating and separating a clean but used model from a piece of junk with a fresh coat of paint.

Thanks for the info on Dave's Tractor.

Have done a awful lot of looking and reading on the net the last couple days and I know a lot more than I did. I think I'm going to focus on the Yanmars as I believe they will be easier to maintain from a parts availability standpoint.

[mark777]

Yes, I know Ernie...not personally but through email, PM's on other forums and by phone. I think he still knows me as mark777 :). I have never had an occasion to buy anything from him because....well....he's over there and I'am down here.

I have witnessed, several times, his willingness to help out those who were hasty in a tractor purchase, taken by unscrupulous dealers or suffered some catostrophic mechanical failure (from those same dealers). Ernie is a staunch supporter AGAINST anything called remanufactured, rebuilt, reconditioned or re-anything coming from S.E. Asia. It does hurt his (and others) business.

The way the hours has been explained to me by other dealers and importers does account for so few hours. Apparently to maintain a Farmer status in Japan, you have to own and cultivate x amount of land a minimum of x amount of hours. Their government does supplemnt farming equipment and tractors at a very high discount. There are also great tax write off advantages on rice yields and equipment depreciation. So a tractor 10-15 years old has lost all of its write off advantages, often with fewer than 30 hours per year (they till twice a year for about two weeks at a time) and the land owner / farmer starts the process over again....new equipment, new tractor, new subsidies.

All the tractors and equipment are collected and auctioned to private yards that supply lists to importes here (U.S.)...and my understanding is what ever is left, tractors not suitable for export, are now being purchased and exported to VietNam.

Mark

[Mickey]

Mark, was over to Ernie's again today for a closer look. In addition to the 2210 I've been looking at he had a sale fall through on a FX24D so now it's available again. Decent looking tractor with 1k hrs. Very clean with only metal damage seen was a slight oil-can to the top of the hood.

Asking price $9.2k with a 150 series Koyker loader. Relooked at the 2210 and asked about the price again and today was told $8.2k with the 120 series loader.

I'm thinking for the extra 1k the Fx240 is a better machine than the 2210 with addded bonus of power steering and larger loader.

What do you know about the F series tractors?

I mentioned your resent project and he asked if it was you.

As I mentioned before and you've confirmed, Ernie does seem to be a real decent person. He spend at least and hr with us today showing us around and all the stuff he had. Lots of parts tractors and spare sheetmetal and drive train components.

He showed me a first, he has a 2 seat tractor, side/side seating. Sort of looked like a cross between a Gator style rig and a tractor. It did have a 3pt hitch and 4wd. He got it as a surprise in one of his shipments and turned it into a project and totally rebuilt. Quite unusual.

[jodyand]

That Fx240 is a nice looking tractor.

[Ingersoll444]

Ya it looks nice. Looks a lot bigger then the Yanmar's I am used to seeing.

[mark777]

Sorry Mickey,

I know very little about the F and FX series tractors. We have had only one in the shop for repairs. And that was a broken detent spring on the shifter preventing it from staying in the shift gate. 15 minute fix....I don't even think we charged the guy. It is a mid to late "80's tractor, and a few years ago they were a little harder to acquire parts, but not anymore.

I have seen pictures of his two-seater....interesting piece of equipment.

Mark

[Mickey]

Thanks Mark. Ernie does have several F series parts tractors. Unless I somehow would abuse I don't think I would have any problems at least for a long time. What ever I get I don't see me using it more than 30-40 hrs/yr.

One intresting thing I noted on these models is the hyd adj they have for leveling the 3 pt lift. To go along with this the usual tillers he gets have a sense control that plugs into the tractor and it maintains the tiller level regardless of orientation of the tractor. No big deal for me but have never seen anything like this.

This tractor have got me interested and Ernie seems like someone you would like to do business with and his prices seems decent as compared to what I've seen on the net.

Thanks for all your comments.

[Durwood]

Have you bought anything yet Mickey? If so we need pics you know. :fing32:

Dur

[Mickey]

Have you bought anything yet Mickey? If so we need pics you know. :fing32:

Dur
Not yes but I'm give strong consideration to the Fx24d I posted a pic of. Lots of things on my plate this week so I've asked Ernie how quick I need to move on this offering.

I think I'm going to tell Ernie about this sites as his knowledge and willingness to help others would be a welcomed asset. I've seen Ernie's name mentioned and saw his posts on other sites and all think he one of the good guys. As Mark indicated in one of his posts, he knows Ernie fairly well from other sites.

[smith009]

Personally, I wouldn't touch a 'grey-market' machine. Generally, they were brought into the country to avoid regulations we in the U.S. think are important (see Code of Federal Regulations CFR 29, part 1928) - almost for-sure imported illegally. I view these machines as little different than products sumggled into the country - undermining the very businesses and business networks (dealers) that serves us when we need parts and service. They are born without legitimite parenthood. Because buying such a machine, regardless of the price, has the effect of establishing value to illegally smuggled goods and undermining honest business owners, I, personally, would never buy such a machine.

. . . . . for what it's worth . . . .

(Last July, I bought a used (in really nice shape) New Holland TC30 - with front-end loader, along with a new Woods 6' mower and a 7' blade - for $12,600 (Vermont), and I'm really happy with it.)

smith009

[Durwood]

Personally, I wouldn't touch a 'grey-market' machine. Generally, they were brought into the country to avoid regulations we in the U.S. think are important (see Code of Federal Regulations CFR 29, part 1928) - almost for-sure imported illegally. I view these machines as little different than products sumggled into the country - undermining the very businesses and business networks (dealers) that serves us when we need parts and service. They are born without legitimite parenthood. Because buying such a machine, regardless of the price, has the effect of establishing value to illegally smuggled goods and undermining honest business owners, I, personally, would never buy such a machine.

. . . . . for what it's worth . . . .

(Last July, I bought a used (in really nice shape) New Holland TC30 - with front-end loader, along with a new Woods 6' mower and a 7' blade - for $12,600 (Vermont), and I'm really happy with it.)

smith009

You have the conception of a Grey market tractor that a lot of people do.... They are not illegal to own, it's just that the grey means they were made for one country but sold in another. As far as safety features they have the same that any tractor had that were made those years. Your old Fords and other brands don't have ROP s either but people still use them. Some only put on 50-100 hours a year on a tractor and can't justify the big price of a new name brand tractor. I look at the Greys as a cheap alternative to a new tractor, but not everyone has to buy them if they don't want to. The Chinese tractor is also an alternative for some people who want a new tractor but can't afford the name brands.

Dur

[Mickey]

Dur, you beat me to the punch as my keyboard locked up. Here are my comments to Smith009.

Smith, it's obvious you don't know anything about the tractors this thread is talking about. I didn't know much myself a couple weeks ago but didn't have a strong neg opinion either. These are imports of used tractors 20-25 yrs old. It is perfectly legal to import these and they are done so by the many thousands annually. They are brought in in cargo containers both 20' and 40' sizes. They typ have had very little and light duty use by US stds. Mostly likely the only difference in these tractors and the ones imported new at the time was labeling. These tractor can be found at a lot of dealers selling new products as well. They are a qlty product that is a VG value.

As for parts and service, not hard at all for the more popular brands. As a mater of fact Yanmar, (most prominent brand coming over) made all of JD's small 4wd models for over 20 yrs and still does for 1-2 models.

You know these tractors are no different than the imported Japanese engines and transmissions one can buy cheaply as a replacement for worn out drive trains in US cars. The Japanese Gov has strong incentives to replace auto's and equipment like tractors while still having a lot of serviceable life. There is no market in Japan for used products.

Very few US offering in the 15-30 hp range and certainly not US made other than the very old products lines like the Ford 8N and 9N types.

You should become a little more knowledgeable about these tractors and possibly you will have a different opinion of them.

[mark777]

Geeze Mickey, You have amassed quite a bit in such a short time.

smith009, Just FYI:

John Deere: 650, 655, 790, 850, 855, 870, 950, 970, 990, 1050, 1070, 1250, 1450, 1650, 2210, 3120, 3320, 3520, 3720, 4100, 4110, 4115, 4120, 4210, 4310, 4400 and 4410 models were manufactured in Japan from 1978 to 2005. Ranging in engine horse power from 16 to 67. Many are completely indentical (other than color), some utilize many major components....and some just engine, transmission and hydraulics.

A few years ago, I was very leary (skeptical) about grey market tractors....probably like you are now. I have come to learn that we are not cheating anyone, nor putting anyone out of a job due to the transition into a world market. Yanmar is just one company. And if John Deere elected to have them manufacture their SCUT and CUT lines with the above models and for so many years, then why would someone informed not consider a YM or FX model?? Yes, and older tractor for sure, but simple economics provide a market for these tractors.

No slamming you here....just wanted to broaden your perspective a little.

Regards, Mark

[guest]

As I understand it the John Deere 4000 Ten Series machines with the exception of the 4115 where manufactured in GA. The Yanmar engines and a few other components used in these machines were manufactured in Japan.

The 3000 Twenty Series tractors are more or less updated versions of the 4000 Ten Series mid frame tractors which now use an updated Tier II compliant version of the Yanmar engines which now have turbo chargers and intercoolers but are still assembled in GA.

The 4000 Twenty Series tractors are more or less an updated versions of the 4000 Ten Series 4510, 4610, and 4710 now equipped with the John Deere PowerTech Series engines, also equipped with turbo chargers.

The 2210 I will have to do some research on but my understanding is that components for this machine are made in a number of foreign countries and the parts are assembled in the USA.

The 90 Series 790 and 990 are pure Yanmar Japanese built machines and are VERY well built and SOLID reliable machines.

I agree that the Yanmar AND John Deere grey market tractors are very good machines PROVIDED you get one that actually has been well cared for and has the actual hours shown on it. Many of the Yanmar grey market tractors have seen years of hard duty in rice paddies and other harsh environments. Although not all are marketed this way; a large percentage are high hours, hard duty machines that more or less get a few repairs to get them running and a quick coat of paint slapped on them and out the door to our front door they go. If you are lucky and get a well cared for good shape machine; they are as good as any well manufactured machine in the used tractor market. The flip side of the coin is that a poor condition machine may cost you some time and money to repair and not turn out to be such a bargain after the costs of repair and making it reliable.

There are some good and some not so good buys out there. Just be careful and do your homework BEFORE you buy the machine.

[Mickey]

There are so many of these tractors coming into the states there is a grading system. Class A = cosmetic only defects, Class B = may need some mech work in addition to the cosmetics, Class C are pretty well run down, Class D = parts only. Have seen a dealer or two saying they won't sell any of these with lass than a B+ grade.

My understanding is if the tractor is one of the "remanufactured" ones from VN the hrs will be set back to zero. If imported directly from Japan without any fixing, most US dealers will not set back the meter even if they have performed extensive service on them. Anyone thinking about one of these imports needs to be leary of a pig with lipstick. May look nice but it's still a pig.

[Durwood]

There are so many of these tractors coming into the states there is a grading system. Class A = cosmetic only defects, Class B = may need some mech work in addition to the cosmetics, Class C are pretty well run down, Class D = parts only. Have seen a dealer or two saying they won't sell any of these with lass than a B+ grade.

My understanding is if the tractor is one of the "remanufactured" ones from VN the hrs will be set back to zero. If imported directly from Japan without any fixing, most US dealers will not set back the meter even if they have performed extensive service on them. Anyone thinking about one of these imports needs to be leary of a pig with lipstick. May look nice but it's still a pig.

And from my understanding the only ones they recondition are the worst grades of tractors (C and D). Which i think is another good reason to stay away from the reconditioned ones. Why would any tractor with under 2000 hours need reconditioned anyway? I would much rather have a used tractor where i can see how it has been treated.

Dur

[mark777]

There are three types of yanmar buyers that I have experienced in the last few years:

1- The person who has a larger tractor dedicated to the fields. Often a smaller tractor is desirable for lighter duties especially around the house. Large gardens or food plots, tilling and light loader work for anything from firewood to landscaping. There are now 3 Yanmars, an Iseki and Shiabura in my neighborhood.

2- And this is especially true around here. 2 - 10 acre horse ranches. People who fuss over their horses are in abundance in my community. Often a small grey model with a FEL is ideal for their purposes, cleaning stalls, bush hogging pastures, fence posts and fencing seem to go on endlessly. They are the majority of my customers and don't feel the need for bigger or more expensive tractors.

3- Then there are the gentleman farmers/ranchers who really just like to mow their property. They have anywhere from 3 - 5 acres and tend to destroy garden tractors. Every couple of years they go out and buy another garden tractor and try to make it do what it was not designed for. They discover for a little more than what they paid for their last riding lawn mower, they can have a small diesel tractor, certainly more suited for the duties as described, and they are happy. Once you explain the maintenance procedures, safety practices and care for a diesel tractor and 3 point hitch operations, these people are extremely satisified. And all they really want is a tractor - rotary cutter combination.....That they can sit on, mow their property in a few hours, and spend the rest of their weekend with the family. Which, ultimately, is what we would all like to do.

I do everything in my power to make sure the tractor I've just completed is strong, safe and reliable. My most recent call was from a customer with a total hydraulics failure. The pump was screaming (he said), the box blade will not come up off the ground (he said), and the draft controls try to make the tractor engine stall....(he said). HE WAS CORRECT.....NOTHING WORKED. I went there knowing and fearing the worst. Turns out his 3' tall son turned the funny knob under the seat and engaged the implement lock.

Chief: I'll have to update my notes on the JD's assembled in GA. Thanks and regards,

Mark