What's my 4410 Worth?

[PsRumors]

I bought this last year. It has 130 hours on it. It is the eHydro with automotive style cruise. I had the telescoping lift bars added and the marker light gaurds installed. All service has been done per the book and everything works as it should. It has been kept in doors when not in use. There are some scratches from use but nothing major. The loader is a 430. There is 1 year left on the warranty. What would be a good price?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/846536/4410Left.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/846536/4410Controls.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/846536/4410Right.JPG

[JDFANATIC]

ps,

I'd say about $19K. Why are you selling it?

Cheers

JDFANATIC
JD2210

[mark777]

Man, I would hate to guess....I can't even find one in the blue book or machinerylink.com. It's a beautiful tractor, can't believe your selling it. Gonna get a bigger one??

Mark

***edit*** Yeah...I was thinking $18.5K - $20K, somewhere in there. I was afraid to say it until you put up 19K.

[sixchows]

What did it list for new? I'd have a REAL hard time parting with that!

[PsRumors]

It listed for over $25,000 if I remember correctly. John Deere still shows the tractor listing for $22,242 plus tax. I can't find and don't remember what the 430 loader cost but say $3000 list is probably on the low side.

I don't want to sell it but we are wanting to do an addition to the house and this and my equipment (post hole digger, tiller, grooming mower, bush hog, scrape blade) will pay for about half of it. I guess I have to have priorities.

[JDFANATIC]

ps,

BTW, I pulled that number out of machinefinder.com where they had a 100 hr. machine, eHydro, MFWD, with a loader for that price. Good luck with the priorities; I'd figure a way to keep/get both!

Cheers

JDFANATIC
JD2210

[jdkubotamurray]

That series has been substantially upgraded with larger engines/more HP, I'd say if you can get over 15K and you have plans for a larger machine you'd be doing fine.

[guest]

Wow Ron! You don't hardly have that machine broke in yet! :fing20: The prices I see being suggested are "on the lot prices" I am not saying that you won't get that but a dealer typically prices a used machine about $1,500 higher than what a private individual would.

You can try pricing it at $19,500 which seems to be the high end of dealer pricing but be willing to haggle that price down when push comes to shove. Also a lot depends on the particular area and its demand for such a machine. Might be a good demand in your area.

Considering that a new 4410 equipped like yours can be had for around $21,500 to $22,500; Between $15,000 and $17,000 would not be out of consideration. You could probably make a package deal figuring around 65% to 75% of the cost you paid for the implements.

I really hate to see you sell the machine especially since you like it and it does what you need so well. I am sure you realize the huge hit you will take in value. Very similar to buying a used car and selling it a year later.

REAL glad to hear you are selling it due to expanding the house vs a divorce or other negative event. I hope I am not the bearer of bad news, just wanted to put the reality of a the current market out there.

[Archdean]

Wow Ron! You don't hardly have that machine broke in yet! :fing20: The prices I see being suggested are "on the lot prices" I am not saying that you won't get that but a dealer typically prices a used machine about $1,500 higher than what a private individual would.

You can try pricing it at $19,500 which seems to be the high end of dealer pricing but be willing to haggle that price down when push comes to shove. Also a lot depends on the particular area and its demand for such a machine. Might be a good demand in your area.

Considering that a new 4410 equipped like yours can be had for around $21,500 to $22,500; Between $15,000 and $17,000 would not be out of consideration. You could probably make a package deal figuring around 65% to 75% of the cost you paid for the implements.

I really hate to see you sell the machine especially since you like it and it does what you need so well. I am sure you realize the huge hit you will take in value. Very similar to buying a used car and selling it a year later.

REAL glad to hear you are selling it due to expanding the house vs a divorce or other negative event. I hope I am not the bearer of bad news, just wanted to put the reality of a the current market out there.

Randy, you just about nailed that right on the ole noggin!! Ron what part of the country are you trying to sell it it in and what dealers are within 100 miles of you as tractor buyers will travel that distance easily just to kick tires!!

Put the thing on E-BAY along with your pics and a photo of your maint. record!!

Somebody like me will probably transport it for you (depends on area of course) for little or nothing!!

I too hate to see you sell it! Perhaps one of the MTF guys will buy it, if it were orange Id buy it myself but you wouldn't like the offer!!

An afterthought, If it's financed check to see if the loan is assumable, it might help a timid buyer!!

Best of luck!!

[Durwood]

Maybe it's just me but all i ever hear is that JD is more money but you always get it back on trade in. So, i have a hard time believing it is a $5,000.00 loss after only one year. You are talking about a 20-25% loss. An off brand wouldn't lose anymore than that, so something seems amiss to me here and i hope you get more than that out of it.

Dur

[Archdean]

Maybe it's just me but all i ever hear is that JD is more money but you always get it back on trade in. So, i have a hard time believing it is a $5,000.00 loss after only one year. You are talking about a 20-25% loss. An off brand wouldn't lose anymore than that, so something seems amiss to me here and i hope you get more than that out of it.

Dur

An off brand won't even come close DUR!!
If he were trading it in on something more expensive it would bring what he wants but he isn't!!!
If it's one year old most buyers will buy new with the financing and the other spiffs offered along with the full warranty!!

Dur.. The sad truth is he will need to discount it heavily to un load it!!As a dealer will turn a new one in a heartbeat to to same guy that will consider his!!!

[sixchows]

Yeah but trade ins at a dealer are a whole different matter. The dealer may be making 50% or better on the new tractor depending on what incentives he bought it under and what has in stock as attachments bought previously at other incentives. So in theory the dealer can offer more for their own brand back on a trade and then give you alittle break on the new one, sell your old one for less than they gave you for it and still make 35-40%. They give high money back on their brand to keep that percieved value theory alive. And don't be surprised if they pull the loader off that machine and give it a nice cleaning and detailing and maybe even some paint and sell it as a demo unit for close to the original price.

[Archdean]

Yeah but trade ins at a dealer are a whole different matter. The dealer may be making 50% or better on the new tractor depending on what incentives he bought it under and what has in stock as attachments bought previously at other incentives. So in theory the dealer can offer more for their own brand back on a trade and then give you alittle break on the new one, sell your old one for less than they gave you for it and still make 35-40%. They give high money back on their brand to keep that percieved value theory alive. And don't be surprised if they pull the loader off that machine and give it a nice cleaning and detailing and maybe even some paint and sell it as a demo unit for close to the original price.

Your dreams are having DREAMS sixchows!!! 50% nohow/noway!!!!!!!!!

[sixchows]

Your dreams are having DREAMS sixchows!!! 50% nohow/noway!!!!!!!!!

I didn't say the final sale resulted in a 50% profit. I said that's the room they have to work with. No one wants that secret let out. That's why you see these things posted where the car dealer for example is only showing a $2500-$3000 difference between his cost and list. Do you really think any business is laying out $35,000 to make $3000?

I sell big ticket toolboxes and automotive equipment and can say for sure sometimes I have a 50-60% markup to work on.

Another example is this new employee discount thing. The cars are reduced by something like $8-$10,000 and the companies are still making a profit and anothe r fact is the employees are still getting them for less!

[guest]

Yeah but trade ins at a dealer are a whole different matter. The dealer may be making 50% or better on the new tractor depending on what incentives he bought it under and what has in stock as attachments bought previously at other incentives. So in theory the dealer can offer more for their own brand back on a trade and then give you alittle break on the new one, sell your old one for less than they gave you for it and still make 35-40%. They give high money back on their brand to keep that percieved value theory alive. And don't be surprised if they pull the loader off that machine and give it a nice cleaning and detailing and maybe even some paint and sell it as a demo unit for close to the original price.

I am not trying to be a party pooper or negative; just present a realistic scenario. I hope Ron can get top dollar for his machine and hopefully he will. Right now MANY manufacturers are just not moving product like they want and are offering big discounts and even employee discounts.

John Deere does NOT have a 50% price margin figured into its equipment. It is more like 25% and you will be lucky to get 15% and maybe 20% on aged inventory. Deere has about 15% mark up on implements.

Below are some examples of pricing that most folks are NOT aware of and probably will NEVER get. This is federal, state, and municipal contract pricing. Deere still makes money but not that much. They make up for it more in volume of sales in this case.

In this case a 4410 costs the state about $15,697.66. The federal govt. will get an even better price. One of my jobs while on active duty was Division Aviation Maintenance Contracting Officer. I contracted with Deere for 15 4710's at about $16,000 each. Deere doesn't make a huge profit here but they more than make up for it in fleet parts and maintenance sales; not to mention that it is the ultimate advertising when Uncle Sam goes with your color equipment. Here is another link to state pricing.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/equipment/contracts/tr_cpt_utl____shrt%20version/jd%204000%20series.pdf


Again I wish Ron all the best but was being the devils advocate to illustrate the potentail scenario's.

[Archdean]

I didn't say the final sale resulted in a 50% profit. I said that's the room they have to work with. No one wants that secret let out. That's why you see these things posted where the car dealer for example is only showing a $2500-$3000 difference between his cost and list. Do you really think any business is laying out $35,000 to make $3000?

I sell big ticket toolboxes and automotive equipment and can say for sure sometimes I have a 50-60% markup to work on.

Another example is this new employee discount thing. The cars are reduced by something like $8-$10,000 and the companies are still making a profit and anothe r fact is the employees are still getting them for less!

Well tool boxes and etc. might be but Tractors and Autos sure as hell don't !!!!!!!!!!! 12 % tops with some hold back is possible perhaps with some slow moving models!!

Get your facts straight please!!!! Furniture and Jewelry can be as high as 300% but heavy iron IS NOT tool boxes/wrenches/screwdrivers,furniture or jewelery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sixchows]

So you really think that chevy dealer down the road is only making $3000 on a 2005 tahoe? How could anybody be in business? Figure in the costs of just opening the door. If you have a building you are either paying the rent or lease and real estate taxes. Add on corp taxes, unemployment taxes, utilities, supplies, parts inventory, saleries for sales staff, techs, and whoever else, insurance costs, open acccounts to suppliers who will cut you off when a second payment is missed (maybe even the first) you would need to sell how tractors a week?

Nobody is working on 15-20% in any business and surviving especially if they have any of these operating costs.

[sixchows]

Oh and one more thing, no one is disclosing their actual cost to anybody including the gov't agencies looking to buy. Why do you think all these companies are getting caught up in fraud? Most can't afford to show what is real and still turn a profit.

[Archdean]

So you really think that chevy dealer down the road is only making $3000 on a 2005 tahoe? How could anybody be in business? Figure in the costs of just opening the door. If you have a building you are either paying the rent or lease and real estate taxes. Add on corp taxes, unemployment taxes, utilities, supplies, parts inventory, saleries for sales staff, techs, and whoever else, insurance costs, open acccounts to suppliers who will cut you off when a second payment is missed (maybe even the first) you would need to sell how tractors a week?

Nobody is working on 15-20% in any business and surviving especially if they have any of these operating costs.

It will suffice to say that you are ill-informed!! Sorry but your trade is not transferable!!:fing20:

[guest]

Six, auto manufacturers sell hundreds of millions of vehicles. Nearly everyone of age has one. Not so with a tractor. I'm not saying Ron won't get a better price........just laying out the spectrum.

[sixchows]

Chief
That's exactly my point! A tractor dealer probably isn't selling 10/week. So at 15-20% they be closed in a month or two.

[Durwood]

Well, i know Mahindra dealers have a 40% profit markup in a tractor and i talked to a guy a while back that is having some tractors brought in from Japan and he told me there was close to a 40% markup in them at MSRP. That doesn't mean he will make that much on them as most will come off the MSRP a bit. But i agree with 6 here and think there is more than a 15-25%.
The fact that they are not high volume like a car would have to let them make a little more to stay in business.

Dur

[Archdean]

While I have only been in retail for the last 25 years!! Not to mention the Auto and Heavy Iron part!

There is a very unrealistic view of this market being placed on this thread!!! But hey if your an expert go for it!! I just piddle around in the industry!~! Enjoy!

Just take that attitude to your local Tractor Big Iron Dealer and see how it flys!!

I told you exactly how it is!! But what the hell do I know!!!

[sixchows]

So Dean if a customer came in and was looking at a cash deal on any tractor in stock, he wouldn't get an easy 10-15% discount off list? I'd be willing to bet he would. Now at that discount is the dealer making zero and just giving it away for the smell of cash? I don't think so!

I realize sears is a nationwide chain and not indicitive of what a small mom and pop outfit could compete against but entertain for a minute if you will.
A GT5000 may list for say $3000, but is on sale or promo or whatever just about every week for say $2500. That amounts to a little over a 16% discount. Now open a new charge account and receive an additional 10% off. Then if you have a craftsman club card you get another 10% on top of this. Now I know you are thinking they will get it all back with their 24.99% interest rate. But you can get 1 year no interest and just pay it off before. Now before tax and or delivery(you can take it home yourself) this $3000 tractor is out the door for a $2016.90. This amounts to almost a 30% discount from list! Now do you think sears isn't still making 10,15, or 20%?
Now lets move over to Home Depot. They must at least be working on the same percents as their competitor sears. Now if the John Deere dealer is selling at the same regulated by John Deere the manufactureer price as Home Depot than he in turn must be making the same margin.

[Archdean]

Sorry for the delay SIX but just had a big whopper of a power outage here and I'm back to dial -up now anyway!!

I'm afraid your insisting on trying to make Marmalade out of apples and gooseberries!!!

Box stores are very different animals from Dealerships and yes I work for the 4th largest K dealer in the nation (at least that's what the poop sheet says!!

Now to be more succinct , yes there can be offsets in dating and incentives to the number of units sold and inventoried ....... But the basic margin over-all is what I first told you!!!!

[sixchows]

Dean
12% I'm not buying it! Who in their right mind would take on the debt and liabilty of owning and operating their own small business with the promise of a measly 12% return before they even meet their expenses. Highly unlikely!

[Archdean]

Dean
12% I'm not buying it! Who in their right mind would take on the debt and liabilty of owning and operating their own small business with the promise of a measly 12% return before they even meet their expenses. Highly unlikely!

Tis obivious I'm not going to convince you!! If you look around at the auto dealers that you sell your Matco tools too, ie. the "Wage mechanics" You may notice that the service and the parts department is what keeps the Dealership alive to be able to hire the guy who needs to buy the fancy tool box from you and snap-on and all the rest!

IT's NOT GM/FORD/Crysler/nor JohnDeere/Kubota/NewHolland that is keeping the doors open!!! Believe it or NOT!!!!

:banghead3

[mark777]

I understand how it works at car dealerships, and taking a drastic hit in the first year in retail / resale value is a well known fact.

But, If I were Ron, and found out that my top of the line (John Deere) tractor/FEL took an approximate $10K depreciation in the first 130 hours AND a newer year -same model is available for $3,500 to $4,500 less....It would shake my confidence in John Deere. I would also be much less brand loyal in the future.

Finding this out, and even though the tractor is in excellent condition (and Ron, I am sure it is) It is a lose, lose situation for the owner, and any perspective buyer looking at this tractor, with all the options, but one year old would probably buy new with the full warranty and financing options. IMHO - If a JD dealer takes it in for trade, consignment sale, or buys it outright, they will get the lions share of the profit regardless. Hey....that would be ok too....but not at the previous owners expence.

Mark

[JDFANATIC]

I think there is some silliness going on here. That 4410 has to be obsoleted by Deere as they continue to improve their product lines and go at their competition -- this is not a new scenario. This does not mean the 4410 is an inferior machine -- hell -- it is the top of the line mid-frame tractor. It's just that after only one year it is taking a hit on depreciation. My guess is that the further out you go in years, that this will hit an end, and in the cases of Deere tractors I've owned, will often reverse. I just wish I could figure out a good reason to add a 4410 to my stable!

Cheers

JDFANATIC
JD2210

[MowHoward2210]

I think even your "best resale brands" like Deere and Kubota take initial depreciation hits. But then they seem to level off pretty quick compared to the "lesser resale" brands, and sometime actually reverse as JDFANATIC mentioned.

[ducati996]

Goes with cars too !! you would take a huge hit the first year if you tried to sell within the first year or two....

[guest]

In any case......good luck on the sale Ron! Can't hurt to put it up for sale for $19,500 and see what happens. You can always bargain down in price.

[Ingersoll444]

As for new cars. Dealers dont make a ton of markup on them. The money comes from the back end. Service, and parts. And used cars. THATS where the money is!!!!

[sixchows]

Well my last thought on this subject is you guys might want to open the Sunday newspapers and see the average new car ad showing about a 28% discount off msrp. Yeah I know the dealer isn't going through his entire inventory this way but only because he doesn't want to , not because he can't. And at 28% off msrp they are still making money. Maybe they want their employees to think times are tough so your unions don't look for money.

[jdkubotamurray]

One of the issues with the 4000 midrange to high end models is that they are rather pricy can be as much or more than the 5000 series models. Often, the 4000 series has more bells and whistles, but is lighter and less hp. So you need to catch a buyer just right or on price. The current 43XX has more hp and may be physically larger looking than the 4410, even the 4610 shared the same engine with the JD990 yanmar, now JD is using own new engines in the 4000 series which gave them more performance.