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: Tractor painting?


Ingersoll444
06-11-2005, 08:20 AM
We had a pretty good thred about this going on the old board, but of corse thats gone now, so how about you guys jumping in with your painting tips.

Heres what I am working with. I am redoing my old N. I have some BPS primer, topcoat and hardner. I have some spry gun stuff, but not that good at using it, and not a ton of room. I was thinking brushing on the primer, and maybe the first coat of top coat, then giving it a quick spray on the last coat to make it pretty.

Do I add the harder to the primer and top coat, or just the top coat?

Can the primer coat sit for a month or so before finle top coat?

Any other tips for me? Any help would be great.

professor
06-11-2005, 08:59 AM
Paul, there are lots of areas where brushing would not show. I did the underside of my Cub (the turtledeck and rear end) with a brush (and used a can of inexpensive tractor paint too) but only use spray where you want a nice flat coating. The trick with brushing is getting the right viscosity to flow out and not leave brush marks but avoiding getting sags.

Primer tends to be rather porus unless you specify you want the stuff that you can leave lay for a while and not rust. I might add here that the changing of temperature is primarilly what causes rust indoors. In the shop where I work, we can leave uncoated steel for a time because the temp is quite constant, summer is the worst with the high humidity here.

Here is a tip for getting a nice final coat: use a light in one hand to shine on the surface you are shooting. Try to see the texture you are applying via the reflected light. That way, you see the amount and continuity of the spray pattern.

I used a hardner once on my dunebuggy and it was great. Enamel will age harden all by itself though.

We had a project I volenteered to do at work, the boys gave me a new spray gun and I hated it. I brought in my old pressure feed cheap sears gun (50 # limit) and did the job. There was way less overspray, and went on wetter, now I haven't tried the new gravity feed guns but my thinking is the equiptment is less important than how you use it.
Mike

mark777
06-11-2005, 12:44 PM
Paul,

I have to agree with professor (about 99%) and I was from the old school when it came to siphon style paint guns. Once I understood the transfer efficiency and timing between coats when using HVLP gravity feed guns, I never looked back at my other guns EVER. They are all boxed and probably retailed near $3K and most likely will be future yard sale items.

The industry made understanding transfer efficiency way too complicated and in laymens terms it's simple: Older style siphon/cup style guns (really, really good ones) had about 30% transfer effect....or 70% wasted paint in the form of over-spray and clean out. Newer HVLP guns are closer to 80% efficient like a SATA. $450. - and is not the gun I would recommend for the occasional user. My favorite, which is what I use when painting BPS paints is a $99. IR that I bought a Lowes. I can paint 2 1/2 times as much, with a single quart of paint with the HVLP as I can with the siphon style guns.

Valspar manufactures the BPS paint line. Doug Nash is the (my) area rep and has clued me in on what the directions on the can state, and what you can really get away with. Hardener is highly recommended in the paint and primer. Up to 50% more hardener increases the drying time, repairable in 24 hours, is chip resistant, fuel resistant, and I like this, you can pressure was the paint within 72 hours when fully cured. Is it as good as comercial automotive paints like Acrylic enamels, Urethanes and Poly urethanes....NO. But it is up to 1/10 the costs.

I occasionally see some of the tractors I painted about three years ago, and they still look very good considering they are used frequently, left outside almost always and seldom even washed.

I just want to say that I have no interests or affiliation with Valspar, just excellent results and it is very cost affective when you only need three components to make it work, Naptha (or mineral spirits when brushing), hardener and paint.

Regards, Mark

mark777
06-11-2005, 04:25 PM
Wow, did I come across as a smart alec know it all? I hope not. And for sure I don't know it all by any means.

As I recall from the old forum, there were many knowledgeable painters who had a wealth of information, and that's another reason I liked coming to the site.

Mark

Durwood
06-11-2005, 04:55 PM
Here is some of Marks handiwork since he hasn't put it up yet. :hatsoff:

Archdean
06-11-2005, 05:11 PM
Wow, did I come across as a smart alec know it all? I hope not. And for sure I don't know it all by any means.

As I recall from the old forum, there were many knowledgeable painters who had a wealth of information, and that's another reason I liked coming to the site.

Mark

If you did you could of fooled me! And as far as I'm concerned you do great work and it shows!! Being a smart alec only gets you so far the pics prove you are not that!! Nice skill and you do it well!!

horseman1
06-11-2005, 07:57 PM
Dont you have to use external air supply respirator when using a hardener? I wasnt going to use hardener for that reason. Please let me know, since I'm about to paint some more on the Farmall without this hardener :( . Awesome paint jobs btw :trink40:

Thanks

mark777
06-11-2005, 08:23 PM
Thanks guys...and Durwood, you never cease to amaze me. I have lost all those pix from the big hard drive crash of '04.....(Oh, and wait till you see what I have in the paint booth right now).

Horseman, The isocynites are the real poisons that can't be filtered out with cartridge style masks and the polyurethanes are the primary culprit. Even prolonged exposure to skin and eyes have a systemic effect on the nervous system. So the fresh air supplied hood, Tyvec suit and gloves are the industry standard for PPE (personal pertective equipment) when painting Dupont's Imron, PPG's Durathane and a host of other polyurethane manufacturers.

If you can replicate a good painting environment by sealing an area with fresh vented external air and a good exhaust system to create a positive internal airflow, and you are not shooting polyurethanes, then a cartridge mask is more than adequate for the majority of catylized paints.

Regards, Mark

Durwood
06-11-2005, 08:46 PM
Ok Mark, to make sure i got this straight, you are saying that the BPS paints and hardeners do NOT need a external air supply respirator. Is that what you are saying..(i'm a little slow on some things)? :fing20:
And i'm waiting on a pic to see what is in the paint booth. :fing32:
Dur

mark777
06-11-2005, 09:03 PM
Durwood, No they do not need external air supply or a positive air supplied system. A good "Survivair", "Sata", or "3M" dual cartridge full or half mask is sufficient.

Disclaimer: If you are predisposed to respiratory conditions like asthma etc. and you insist on painting yourself....then you should use a positive pressure fresh air supplied hood and suit.

Mark

professor
06-11-2005, 11:52 PM
Mark - you came across very well, it's great to have people who know more about the topic than the rest of us. This is a great topic too, because painting is a black art to a lot of folks. Thanks for your input.

Mike

mark777
06-12-2005, 03:11 AM
Thanks professor, Proud to contribute - I'm just an old, semi-retired custom painter that still can't put the gun down. I still think we have some experts lurking in the background on this site.

Mark

Ingersoll444
06-12-2005, 06:27 AM
Mark you did not come across bad at all!! Thanks for your tips. I have an older Astro grav feed,non hvlp gun. I never realy got it set up right though, and have long sence misplaced the instractions that cam with it.

This $99 Lowes gun? Is that HVLP? How much air does it need for small projects? I may look into getting a new gun if I can sneak it by the CFO.

mark777
06-12-2005, 08:23 AM
Hey Paul,

I can't knock Astro guns as they were the first to duplicate the Binks guns near identical knock-offs. Binks patent expired (1989 ?) and quite a few Taiwan manufacturers started pumping out replicas, but Astro made the best one. So, if you can get that one to work it is a definate keeper...maybe use it for primers or small parts.

Yep, that $99. Ingersoll-Rand model 270G gun is High Volume Low Pressure (HVLP) and the can, 33 oz aluminum, is on top (gravity feed). It is also made in Taiwan, and probably by a subdivision of Astro. It requires 43 PSI inlet pressure 8.2 CFM, which is the maximum and is less than 25 PSI at the tip. I would say about two thirds of what a 3/8" air ratchet requires. I would also guess it has about 65% transfer efficency - so your using approximately 1 quart of paint that normally takes 2 1/2 quarts with a non HVLP aspirated siphon gun.

Hope this helps..
Mark

Ingersoll444
06-12-2005, 08:27 AM
Thats not bad at all Mark. I could easyly run that with my supply. My compressre makes 11cfm at 90 so should handle that gun. I will look into it.

As for setting up my old gun. Any online sources for tips?

mark777
06-12-2005, 09:03 AM
Paul, I'm not sure. As I just walked right into my jobber and bought (or ordered) rebuild kits for my old Astros. There is a point where the gun just doesn't perform after so many rebuilds, that I just tossed it in the pile and go buy another one.

I'm almost positive that there is several on-line resourses, as there were probably tens of thousands of guns produced for the American market. I'm thinking "Spray Gun Warehouse" and if you have a model number, they should have, or can get a rebuild kit. And the rebuild kits have a very detailed diagram of what goes where and how the gun operates. Almost all the guns are identical in their operation, fan adjustment, air pressure adjustment and fluid viscosity adustment. And the rebuild diagrams show which control is which.

If you decide to go with a HVLP gun you have to consider that your putting out alot more material (paint) in a single pass. So the best method is to apply an even coat, put the gun away and have your favorite beverage, return and stick your finger in the paint (masking paper, not your hood or fenders) and if it's sticky/stringy it's time for another coat.

Even after all these years, I hang a piece of 18" paper on the booth wall and make a single even pass before I paint anything. Then I paint the part and leave the room. When I return, I stick my finger in that piece of paper, and if it's ready I repeat the whole process---paint the paper, paint the project, leave the booth. And there is nothing more satisfying than making that transition of junk to a beautifully refinished project....for me that is.

Mark

Durwood
06-12-2005, 09:58 AM
Mark, can you imagine how pretty one of them little yanmars would be painted that pretty dodge marina blue. silver wheels ...oooh eee :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana:
And i need a pic of what is it your getting ready to paint. Quit holding out on me. :trink40: :trink40: :trink40:

Dur

mark777
06-12-2005, 12:34 PM
Durwood, yeah that would look pretty cool. I am getting a little tired of my Red, White and Blue color scheme, but they are easily identifiable when I see one around the neighborhood. Maybe i'll go blue, red and white on the next one???

Do you paint? It can be a very rewarding experience.

Mark

Durwood
06-12-2005, 02:06 PM
I've probably painted the inside of over a hundred houses when i worked construction. But that's it, no other experience except with a little wagner power sprayer to paint trim with one time. Those clumps in the paint were beautiful. :00000060:

Dur

parts man
06-12-2005, 07:24 PM
Paul,, the best advice for painting is practice, practice, practice! the more you paint the better you'll get. I painted a couple of wagons and a car before I even considered painting a tractor! :D

mark777
06-12-2005, 10:01 PM
I agree Partsman. Really just about anyone can pull the trigger and make stuff shiny. It's the prep that seperates the men from the boys....and practice does make a big difference.

Durwood, I absolutely detest house painting. Trim, walls, textured celings...I do it, but I dislike it intensely. Oh..and I have never had any good results using a power sprayer either.

Mark

Ingersoll444
06-18-2005, 07:43 AM
Thanks for the tips Mark. I dont think my gun needs a rebuild, I think its just the loose nut holding it.:D I have only used it once or twice, and always struggled to get it right. It's nice to know they are kinda standerd. So if I read up on using any spry gun, the controls should be the same on mine right? All those knobs on there, I have no idea.

mark777
06-18-2005, 08:40 AM
Paul,

All gun manufacturers designs slightly vary, but usually the controls are in, or near the same place.

Your gun may or may not have this: If you start at the bottom of the gun handle, there is a knob (small usually) that rotates 90* - that is your internal air pressure regulator....not the same as the one you screw on the bottom with a guage, but does the same thing.

If you follow the gun handle about 3/4ths the way up, there is a single knob the adjusts the fan control. Your gun has this. It should adjust from a 1" round dot when knob is turned fully clockwise and, to 8"-10" vertical fan when turned fully counter-clockwise.....some guns work exactly the same, but in oposite directions on the fan control.

At the top and in the rear of the gun handle there is a spring loaded screw with a jamb nut. Rotating the screw adjusts the material (paint/primer) flow. Turned fully counter clockwise allows the maximum paint output....Heavy, runny and seldom recommended. Fully clockwise and it shuts off the material flow completely. So finite adjustments in between those two directions will give you a very fine fog (misting) to a very heavy (full wet) coat of material.......The whole process duplicates a needle and seat exactly like a carberatuer (sp?). By adjusting the material knob you are increasing'decreasing the travel of the fluid needle inside the gun, and, you will see a noticeable difference in the finger trigger distance from short to all the way back. The jamb nut simply locks that distance in place (so if it gets bumped it wont change the adjustment).

The air cap at the very front of the gun, controls the fan direction. When the air horns (those big ears on the sides) are rotated 90* you change from vertical fan to horizontal fan.

It all sounds complicated in the written form but if you follow the suggested reduction rates (how much thinner/hardener on the back of the paint can) and load the gun, walk over to a big piece of hanging newspaper and expierment with the gun controls.....it only takes a minute to see how each control interacts with one another.

I hope this helps...

Regards, Mark

Fusion1970
06-18-2005, 10:01 AM
I agree on the trying different settings. Awhile back, I painted 50 helmets for our local little league football teams. I wanted to adjust the pattern so thered be minimal overspray, as I did not know if I had enough paint...but due to not having much paint, I didn't want to waste any playing around with patterns and amounts, etc.

Good thing I did, as theres no way I would have had enough paint just blasting it on, and by the time I found the pattern I wanted, I was comfortable with the application.

Greg

mark777
06-18-2005, 12:09 PM
Greg, I hope it was a labor of love. 50 helmets....wow. The things we do for children.

Paul, I have an old Porter Cable HVLP that I will take a picture of and hope to post so you can see the knobs and such, that I mentioned earlier. I am not computer savy enough to make arrows, circles and lines.

Mark

mark777
06-18-2005, 12:17 PM
Here's a pix (kinda fuzzy) that is typical of the layout of controls on most gravity feed guns.

Mark

Ingersoll444
06-19-2005, 07:23 AM
Well mine looks a lot like yours. Here is a shot of my gun..

Ingersoll444
06-19-2005, 07:26 AM
OK, well lets try adding the picture this time. :bonk: :bonk:

mark777
06-19-2005, 09:12 AM
Yep, that's the gun I visualized when you first posted. The Binks model exterior was (is) different....knurled handles, knobs and mostly stainless, just a real pretty looking professional grade gun. But the internal parts on most of them are interchangeable with one another (Astro to Binks and vice versa)..

When are we going to see some "N" pictures? Before, during and afters?

WARNING: Painting can be very costly and time consuming due to friends, neighbors and relatives becoming your new best friends.

Mark

Ingersoll444
09-10-2005, 08:31 AM
Well Now that painting time is pretty much here, time to revisit this. Now I am going to start to play around with the gun alittle. Any ideas on a bace line to work from? Is there a "turn this knob 2 turns, that one 1 and 3/4 turns" etc? Just kinda a starting point to work from, or is it too varable, and I should just play?

mark777
09-10-2005, 10:47 AM
Paul,

No base line contributions as guns differ from one to the next....even the exact same models.

I would take the dry gun, with no connected air or fluid in the cup, and adjust the fluid control at the back and top of the gun. When you rotate that knob clock wise - and depress the trigger you will notice it shortens the stroke. If you rotate the fluid knob CC..it does just the opposite, it lengthens the trigger stroke. The process adjusts the metering rod travel inside the gun and allows more and less fluid to pass thru and to the air cap. Works just like you bathroom sink faucet......I suggest your trigger somewhere in the middle, or half way back.

The rest of the control knobs, (fan, air pressure) just need to be approx halfway and go from there.

As all painters and their techniques are different, so are their suggestions and advice. I strongly suggest painting a flat piece of paper making one even horizontal pass, disconnect the gun, leaving and coming back in 15 minutes. You will see what the paint is doing. For instance...if it is still wet and runny, decrease the fluid and adjust the control, or increase the distance and speed of your horizontal pass.

Sorry, I could go on and on...but you really do have to say the heck with it and dive in and try it out. Experiment with adjustments and distances.

Regards, Mark

Ingersoll444
09-11-2005, 07:58 AM
OK, well went out to check the gun out last night. I had been looking for a cap to fit over the paint pot, but had not been able to find one. Well I was at HF yesterday and they had replacement pots for the CH paint guns. I figured the cap may fit. Well it didn't, but as luck would have it, the pot fit on to my gun. And its a little bigger to boot. So looks like I am set. I tested out all of the controlls, and have them set mid range. As long as my paint removel prosses goes well today, maybe I will be shoting some paint today, and teast it out.