Old Steam engine picture

[old_nodaker]

I came across this going through some old slides of my mothers. I'd guess she'd taken a picture of an old picture. I've e-mailed her to find out the details. It would appear to be a 12 bottom plow. Wonder if the guy steering had on his seat belt. There's a third person riding on the plow, back where it's faded out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/old_nodaker/steamengineplowingresized.jpg

[Steve (Magnolia, TX)]

Now that's a neat old picture...

I'd be interested to find out where, when and who that was....

Thanks for sharing...

[Jim_WV]

:ditto: neat picture, enjoy seeing the old iron of yesterdays at work :fing32:

[drbailey]

And you know all three of those guys are thinking " It don`t get no better than this " . Now stop and look at where we went in 60 to 70 years. :trink39:

[mbkerk]

Wow... It's a Case, but I have never seen one with an engineers platform quite like that! I'll have to ask some questions!

Thanks OND!

[Ingersoll444]

I was going to say mark that it looks to be a Case. [Im learning :D]

I almost wonder if that seating place was added by the owner. never seen one of them before.

[old_nodaker]

I haven't heard back any details yet.

I'd guess you knew it's a Case by the smoke stack?

Since most of these tractors had very limited visibility, I'd guess Paul is right, owner modification. I'd think it would have been much cooler also. Was there a particular reason most of them had roofs? Surely it was a lot cooler without them.

Mark - were there tractors that ran at higher than 200 lbs, or was that pretty much top end? Were they used for anything other than plowing and belt work? I've never seen them do anything else. Looking at my Rollag pictures, I see that the old straw burner was actually named "plow engine."

Some day I'll do a post with a bunch of my Rollag pictures.

[Ingersoll444]

I'd guess you knew it's a Case by the smoke stack?

.

Well, I thought it was becouse of how the engine was set up. At the end of the cyl, the way the crosshead is cut out. Also the look of the steam pipe from the engine, to the smoke box. The way it buldges out. Just looks like all the Case's I have seen. Maybe I am wrong, and they all look that way. :D

[Ingersoll444]

Duhhhh OK, just looked agean. Maybe it the eagle on the water tank. :D just cought that.:D

[old_nodaker]

Sharp eyes, I hadn't caught that is was an eagle.

I found out a little, the driver is my Grandpa. It's near where my mother grew up here in ND, just North of Tower City and 10 miles from where I grew up. Surely you all know where Tower City is!!!

[jechrist2]

Hi all,

Looking at Old Nodaker's reply (#7)

Since most of these tractors had very limited visibility, I'd guess Paul is right, owner modification. I'd think it would have been much cooler also. Was there a particular reason most of them had roofs? Surely it was a lot cooler without them.

A person might get a bit more breeze without a roof. Getting out of the sun is worth a lot when a person is trying to stay cool on a hot sunny day. I think I would take one with the roof, especially if it was just a roof without sidewalls.

Jerry

[mbkerk]

:Welcome1: Jerry!

Glad you got around to posting here!

Now... lets see some pictures of that awesome portable Prony brake you built!

If you don't have any, I might... I'll check.

That would be a good thread for this forum.

For everyone else here...

Jerry is in my circle of good friends at Rollag. He runs the Prony brake there, and built a portable brake to haul to other shows. He was in New Rockford, ND with the portable two weeks ago. He can bring the Avery to it's knees! He also supplies the load for our engines for spark shows after dark.

Hopefully he will enlighten us all with HP, Torque, and their relationships to each other!

[Ingersoll444]

Welcome Jerry!!!!!


Any steam guys are welcome around here!!!

[MowHoward2210]

Here's a similar Case

[Argee]

Here's a similar setup on the operators platform.

This is from the F. A. Pazandak collection titled
"Jack Anderson's Minneapolis steamer pulling John Deere plow in virgin sod : Fullerton, North Dakota."

http://memory.loc.gov/award/ndfa/ndfapaza/118r.jpg

[draddogs]

A 14 bottm plow, wow some awesome power for their time...

[bear]

Wow... It's a Case, but I have never seen one with an engineers platform quite like that! I'll have to ask some questions!

Thanks OND!
could it be a 110 with the cab removed??
:duh: never mind i looked closer at the pic and saw the sterring wheel

[Walt 2002]

Well I asked this on another thread and didn't get any answer.

Anyone ever see a 4 wheel drive steam traction engine? How about a steam traction engine with a cable drum mounted on the side pulling a "flip over" plow back and forth between it and an anchor steam traction engine, both going across the ends of small fields so field could be plowed without turning the steam traction engine around?

Walt Conner

[Ingersoll444]

Hey Walt. As for a 4wd. I have never seen one, but a steam traction magazne had a picture of on in it a few months back. I cant find the issue right now, but it was saying how there were nat many made.

As for the drum. I had heard a lot of the steam engines worked that way, but have never seen it.

[old_nodaker]

I've never seen the drum setup either, but have heard of it. Maybe Mark will have some info. When you stop and think about it though, how the heck would it work? Seems you'd have to have a steerable plow with somebody driving it to keep it in line.

I've got an uncle who's 98, says that for the most part, they found the tractors to cumbersome to plow with and were mostly used for belt work. Maybe that was a reflection of the length of the fields, as you certainly see lots of pictures of them pulling plows.

Argee, what's the story on your photo? Great picture, and it would appear that it is from the past, but how does it happen to be in color?

[Argee]

Argee, what's the story on your photo? Great picture, and it would appear that it is from the past, but how does it happen to be in color?

They colorized it....it's a neat collection..check it out here (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?ngp:0:./temp/~ammem_Ok9E:)

I've got the one of it coming at you as the wall paper on my cell phone ROF

[Argee]

This is my favorite!!

http://memory.loc.gov/award/ndfa/ndfapaza/117t.gif

[Argee]

Here's a series of old tractors doing field work. That was hot and dusty back then...but..."What A Life It Must Have Been"!!

Field Work (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?ngp:0:./temp/~ammem_DOj6:)

[Argee]

Here's the address of the collections...it's the Library of Congress...called their "Memory Collections"........great stuff!!

Library of Congress (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/ndfahtml/ngphome.html)

[bear]

the cable plowing was quite popular over in England where the fields were to small for a traction engine you'd spend more time turning than plowing. i have pictures somewhere of dads uncle plowing this way over there he used steam into the late 50's

[jechrist2]

No only can the steam engines pull 14 bottoms, they can stop in the field with all the bottoms in the ground and then take off with all the bottoms in the ground. The engines aren't fast (neither ground speed or engine rpm), but they produce a lot of torque.

The formula to calculate horsepower (Hp) is

Hp = Torque X rpm / 5252

The equation can be rewritten to calculate Torque as follows

Torque = Hp X5252 / rpm

I have seen the big Avery that Mark runs produce 129Hp while the enigne is running at 240rpm. That means the engine was producing arond 2800 Ft-lb of Torque.

The Avery is a two cylinder, simple steam engine. (That means both cylinders receive high pressure steam as opposed to a compound two cylinder in which the exhaust from the first cylinder feeds the second cylinder) The two cylinder steam enignes will produce maximum Torque at ALL engine rpm.

Using a Prony brake (pictures and explaination coming soon) we have measured maximum Hp and Torque of Mark's Avery. Then, we continue to increase the load, slowing the engine down untill the engine is stopped. The scale on the brake still shows maximum torque! If the load is released slightly, the engine and the brake start turning.

Try that with any internal combustion engine and the results are very different. As an internal combustion engine looses rpm, Torque starts to drop off. If the load is increased a point is reached where the engine coughs and quits. At that point, no more torque is being produced. The engine can only be started by clutching and releasing the load. Then a person would have to slip and burn the clutch to try to restart the load.

[Walt 2002]

I saw both the cable drum plow set up and the 4 wheel drive steam traction engines at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI. Not sure that is really the official name of the museum but that is what I always call it.

That place is well worth 2 days of anyone's time if interested in cars, machinery, etc. as is Harold Warp's Pioneer Village in Nebraska.

Walt Conner

[mbkerk]

I have seen the big Avery that Mark runs produce 129Hp while the enigne is running at 240rpm. That means the engine was producing arond 2800 Ft-lb of Torque.



I can't wait until we can go back on the brake and run the engine the other direction for a test!

One is never too old to stop learning! :fing20:

[old_nodaker]

Proof positive that Mark was working that day (he's in there behind the steam.)

Mark, you were pretty busy and I had company with, so I didn't say hello. Interesting stuff though, we saw the demo of JE stopping your engine, then it starting up under load.

Questions: What difference will running it the other way make? In the torque formula, where does the 5252 come from?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/old_nodaker/P9040267.jpg

[Mickey]

...
Questions: What difference will running it the other way make? In the torque formula, where does the 5252 come from?
Take a look at this. I think it will help.

http://horsepowersports.com/torque.php?name=torque.htm&page=

As for turning the opposite direction, won't make a diff IF the timing is the same.

[old_nodaker]

sheese - who sits up at night dreaming up these formulas anyway? Thanks for the link, I'll no doubt spend many hours memorizing all that.

Speaking of plows, this was discussed before but worth bringing back, the 60 plow setup, was pulled by three tractors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/old_nodaker/Rollag0322.jpg

[jechrist2]

The guy that defined Horsepower as 550 Ft-Lb/sec (or 33000Ft-lb/min) is none other than James Watt. He developed the first high pressure (well, 5 to 7psi I believe) steam engine and needed some method to explain how much work it could do.

The story I have read is that he figured the average mining horse could do 22000 Ft-Lb/sec. To hedge his bet a little he used a figure one-half again as much and said 1 Hp = 33000 Ft-Lb/sec.

As far as "where did 5252 come from?", the web site Mikey sited a couple messages ago does a pretty good explanation. If you folks would like more, I have a couple sheets of information we often hand out at shows that might be interesting.

Shall I go dig them out?

[mbkerk]

As far as "where did 5252 come from?", the web site Mikey sited a couple messages ago does a pretty good explanation. If you folks would like more, I have a couple sheets of information we often hand out at shows that might be interesting.

Shall I go dig them out?

Jerry,

It would be cool if you could scan them, or otherwise reproduce them and post them here.

I think those sheets are worthy of their own thread in this forum.

Mark, you were pretty busy and I had company with, so I didn't say hello. Interesting stuff though, we saw the demo of JE stopping your engine, then it starting up under load.


Man... I wish you would have said hello! I could have let you and your "company" take the engine for a little drive! Further than 25 feet across a concrete parking lot!

[mbkerk]

Right on track Mickey...

As for turning the opposite direction, won't make a diff IF the timing is the same.

The Avery has done 160 on the same brake. When I was discussing my frustration with those who know a TON more than I do about this engine, about my inability to produce the same results, I was asked what direction I was running the engine. I have been running it in threshing motion (reverse) when doing belt work because of the position of two of the oilers on the quadrant.

When in plowing motion (forward) the valve timing is more advanced... More steam is introduced into the cylinder, and sooner! I did some measuring of the valve gear, and Mark P new what he was talking about... I really never doubt him, I just have to see something to understand it, and boy could I see it!

Unfortunately, the morning I noticed it, I was steaming the engine to load it on the semi to head for Andover, SD and it was not practical to put it back on the brake to test it again. Jerry, Kelly, and I will do another test next summer on Steam School weekend. Mark P says an additional 30 HP should not be any problem. I know Jerry will not cut me any slack!

[jechrist2]

Mark,

I have been trying to get some pictures in and start a thread on Prony Brakes. I need to give you a call

Jerry