MSEA Steam Up this weekend in Fargo, ND

[mbkerk]

The Annual Minnesota Steam Engine Association Spring Steam Up, Hosted by Larson Welding & Machine will be held in Fargo, ND on Saturday April 8th, 2006.

Engines running will be Jim's 40 Avery (New Flues!) and Joe's 60 Case (New Water Tank!) and a 75 Case owned by the Steam Club 71 from Manitoba, Canada (New Boiler!)

Also on exhibit and running will be WMSTR's own 30-60 Case gas tractor. Also, the immaculate scale models of the Rumley and the Hart Parr will be operating Jim's miniature sawmill.

Wimpy A. Will have his Model T at the event, and will be giving rides around Fargo!

Dinner will be served at noon, and at 1 PM the annual meeting of the MSEA will begin.

The steam up is a well attended annual event, and all are invited!

If any of you MTF folks find yourself in the Fargo area Saturday (old_nodaker???) be sure to look me up! If I am not on the 40 Avery, whoever is will know where I am! It will be the first time we steam the Avery with the new flues! A great way to get rid of the winter steam withdrawal, and to start the spring and summer season!

Pictures later!

[old_nodaker]

I'll try to make it.

I notice there's no water spots on your message so guess you're escaping the flood!

[Ingersoll444]

Oh man wish I was closer!!!!!!!!!!!!

[old_nodaker]

So I did get into this show, meet Mark, heck of a nice guy, I don't care what the rest of you say about him ROF

He gave me a ride, albeit a short one. I learned a bunch more. You don't ever want to have to parallel park one of these things, especially on a slope on concrete. It has no brakes, and on the concrete it wanted to roll. He was moving it over to hook up to the belt of a dynometer (I think that's what it's called, device for measuring horsepower.) The belt on those setups have to be perfectly aligned, else they come off when under load. This requires jocking back and forth, in this case on concrete and on a slight slope. Ultimately, it's held in position by blocking the wheels, but moving gently requires a fine touch on the throttle, and massive cranking of the steering wheel.

Forward and reverse is accomplished by a long lever that reverses the engine. I didn't get a chance to ask him exactly how it does that. The clutch consist of "dogs" that are engaged by a crank in the cab with the engine not turning. If they don't line up someone has to turn the flywheel till they do, or the operator turns the engine over. Kind of makes one appreciate ones hydrostatic transmission more.

I don't mean to steal Mark's thread here but pending his recovery from cranking that thing around thought I'd share a bit.

Picture of the back end of the boiler showing the pressure guage (175 lbs here), and the site guage for the water level (a full guage and an empty guage look the same, thus the three petcocks on the right by Marks head so you can check the level there.) Even on the very slight slope we were on, the guage went from 3/4 full to full. Also shows the new cab, which he's already gotten dirty. :00000060:

The other picture is on the belt. I peeked over the shoulder of the dyno operator at his guage's I saw a 34, but I don't know if that was horsepower or if more calculations are required. The engine is rated at 40 horse and wasn't up to full pressure. Mark will probably know....

[mbkerk]

It was a great time, great weather, and the best part was meeting a fellow MTF'er!

I really enjoyed meeting old_nodaker! I wish a few of you lived closer... but you can save your trip up here for Rollag this Labor Day weekend!

He gave me a ride, albeit a short one.

Not enough room to move around! I'll make sure you get to DRIVE it at Rollag!

The other picture is on the belt. I peeked over the shoulder of the dyno operator at his guage's I saw a 34, but I don't know if that was horsepower or if more calculations are required. The engine is rated at 40 horse and wasn't up to full pressure. Mark will probably know....

The engine is officially rated at 120 HP. We have pulled close to 160 on a bigger dyno. Jerry had us at about 80 on his dyno, but it was near the limit of his machine. He built it for much smaller loads, like miniatures. I will start a thread about his Prony Brake soon... Anyway, the 40 HP you are referring to is the Boiler HP of the Avery. By comparison, a 110 HP Case has a 32 HP Boiler.

I will post more pictures in a new thread as time allows!

Guess who is in the picture below? Not me...!

[Ingersoll444]

Wow! Seems like it was a blast!!!!!!!!

[bontai Joe]

Looks like a real fun way to spend the day.

[Mark / Ohio]

old_nodaker...

You look right at home in that cab. I think Mark has found a new co pilot. :)

[old_nodaker]

Actually, he did try to trick me into cranking on the steering wheel. Somebody had said they thought it was 200 turns from lock to lock. I'd guess they weren't too far off.

So now just when I think I understand all this, Mark throws this 40 HP/120 HP thing at me. How can a boiler be 40 horse and the engine be 120 horse? Why does a boiler even have a HP rating? I know they do cause my boiler at the school where I work does too, but I don't know what it means. Then the question becomes - does the size of the boiler really have anything to do with the engine horsepower, other than needing to have the capacity to sustain the steam necessary?

Anyway, glad to know it's more than 40 horse's. I'd sure hate to have seen those old timers go to all that work to run one just to pull a 3 bottom plow. Any idea how many bottom they were rated for? I have the pictures of the 60 bottom plow, but I missed the actual pull. Does the pulling limitation become power or traction?

[Mark / Ohio]

I done some googling and found these definitions for boiler and engine ratings at the link shown above them.

(http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/AE_boiler_rating.html )
Excerpt below:

"Boiler rating:
The heating capacity of a steam boiler; it is expressed in BTU per hour (BTU/h), horsepower (hp), or pounds of steam per hour.

The oldest method of rating boilers, still used to rate small boilers, is by boiler horsepower. One boiler horsepower is defined as the ability to evaporate 34.5 lb. of water into steam at 212°F and above. Large boiler capacity is generally given in lbs of steam evaporated per hour, under specified steam conditions. To convert boiler horsepower (hp) into lb. of steam, multiply hp x 34.5. Maximum continuous rating is the hourly evaporation that can be maintained for 24 hours.

When a boiler operates at its maximum rated capacity, it is referred to as maximum load. If the load varies from hour to hour, it operates at a varying load."

( http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/H/AE_horsepower.html )
Excerpt below:

"Horsepower:
A unit of power. It is still used commonly in the United States and, more generally, to measure the power of engines. Horsepower is defined as the amount of power that can move a 550-pound object 1 foot in one second of time, or 550 ft x (lbs/s). Another way of thinking about this is that a 1 horsepower (hp) engine can move a 550-pound car 1 foot within one second. So, a 10-horsepower engine can move a 550-pound car 10 feet within one second. Shaft horsepower is a measure of the actual mechanical energy per unit time delivered to a turning shaft.

Boiler horsepower is a measure of the maximum rate to heat output of a steam generator (1 boiler hp = 33,479 Btu). Although horsepower is generally used to rate automobile and airplane engines, and is also commonly used in the United States, the watt (or kilowatt –1000 watts), its metric equivalent, is the standard international unit of power. 1 hp = 745.7 watts."

************************************************** ******

So apparently steam horsepower and engine horsepower are not directly related. Required boiler horsepower for a steam engine would be determined by the amount of steam the engine used at full power. Which would also depend on the effeciency / type of the steam engine converting the steam to mechanical horsepower....... Thinking out loud a bit here. I learned something new today. :cool:

[mbkerk]

I done some googling and found these definitions for boiler and engine ratings at the link shown above them...


...So apparently steam horsepower and engine horsepower are not directly related. Required boiler horsepower for a steam engine would be determined by the amount of steam the engine used at full power. Which would also depend on the effeciency / type of the steam engine converting the steam to mechanical horsepower.......

Thanks Mark...!

I knew the two were not directly related, but I had no idea how boiler HP was figured. (I am sure I learned it in steam school (Rollag graduate!) but that was many years ago, and is not something I use in everyday operation.

The Avery has a small engine (7 X 10) for it's belt HP Rating. The HP is developed by the pressure we are allowed to carry in the boiler, 208 PSI. A 30 Avery has the same engine, but less pressure (lighter boiler) and I think they run about 175 PSI. A 110 Case engine is 12 X 12, so they can run a lot less pressure and get comparable belt HP.

[JimNColorado]

Hey Mark,
Your posts on the re-flueing of the Avery have really renewed my interest in these facinating machines. Was back in Ohio visiting my dear old 81 year old pappy a couple of weeks ago. We visited one of his old friends who is 92 and as sprey as my Dad. Mr. Surbehr once owned a Baker 21-75 on the family farm until the early 50's. Really enjoyed the conversation and his memories. He tried to explain to me how injectors work, and I think that I kinda grasp the concept. But I have a question regarding efficiency. What is the typical flow rate of the injector on the Avery? How often do you refill the boiler when it's working under moderate loads? Appreciate your insight.

Incidentally, would sure like to make it to Rollag this fall to shake your hand and see your fine engine in person. Gonna work on it with my social director and CFO.

Thanks,
Jim

[mbkerk]

Hey Mark,
Your posts on the re-flueing of the Avery have really renewed my interest in these facinating machines. Was back in Ohio visiting my dear old 81 year old pappy a couple of weeks ago. We visited one of his old friends who is 92 and as sprey as my Dad. Mr. Surbehr once owned a Baker 21-75 on the family farm until the early 50's. Really enjoyed the conversation and his memories. He tried to explain to me how injectors work, and I think that I kinda grasp the concept. But I have a question regarding efficiency. What is the typical flow rate of the injector on the Avery? How often do you refill the boiler when it's working under moderate loads? Appreciate your insight.

Incidentally, would sure like to make it to Rollag this fall to shake your hand and see your fine engine in person. Gonna work on it with my social director and CFO.

Thanks,
Jim

Thanks for the nice comments Jim.

I plan to do a thread about injectors soon. Just need a little more time to get it put together. Injectors fascinate me. They are magic, as far as I am concerned, and I would like to think they are close to 100% efficient.

I have no idea of the flow rate... there are so many variables, but it is pretty fast... certainly figured in gallons per minute, though probably single digits. How much make up water we add also depends on a lot of variables. The dryer the steam (higher pressure) the less make up water needed. When we work the engine "moderately" at Rollag, we will run probably 300 to 500 gallons of water through the boiler every day, and it all gets put in via the injectors.

Also, just to clear up any mis-conception there might be out there (and I am sure you did not intend to make any...) I do not own the Avery, though I guess I am one of crew who have adopted it! The owner (Jim B.) has shown a great deal of confidence in me and the other crew members, and allows me to "play" with it. He is pretty much "hands off" and doesn't give us a lot of rules, except to take good care of his investment. I just don't want you folks to assume I actually own it!

It would be a real pleasure to meet you Jim, or any of you other MTF'ers if you can make it to the show. I'll be sure you get the "back stage" tour on the Avery (and the rest of the show too!)

[JimNColorado]

Mark,
Thanks for the response. Injecting water into the boiler, using the same ambient pressure as the receiving vessel is fairly facinating. My Dad's friend explained to me that narrowing a stream of water increases it's velocity. So I guess it follows that narrowing the steam pathway carries the water with it into the boiler. While I've never seen one, injectors surely must be magic! I am just curioius as to the efficiency of the device, which must be keyed to the relative "narrowing" of the stream.

I do understand that you don't "own" the Avery, but anything that receives as much attention, time and interest in our lives does certainly constitute "ownership". You're lucky to have such a generous friend in Jim B. It's terrific that you fellows work so diligently to keep this art alive. Best,
Jim