Briggs 11hp rant

[modre]

rant rant rant.
here's the beginning of the saga
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=1844

turns out the shop didn't want to cut an aluminum cylinder...afraid of chatter or something I guess...my guess is someone doesn't want to set up the boring head for a nickle and dime job...so they want to sell me a $900 Kohler Command replacement, or a new $300 block (+$90 piston/rings +gasket set) (no short block available for this age and model engine), so I ran today and retrieved it. I have access in the family network to a big mill, but I've yet to find out if the guy has a boring head that will cut 3.4xxx" ...I KNOW this block can be cut, and I KNOW there's .010, .020" and .030" over pistons available, and I KNOW there's valve guides available.

...so here's the rant...craftsmen of the past had mechanical skills AND machinist skills, AND some gahoonies to dig in where angels fear to tread...these merchants I'm running into are parts changers...yes I understand it's easier to either sell pre-fab parts or just back off, but where has the "can-do" mentality gone? This society is turning into a bunch of wimps...no wonder it's all going overseas...but I refuse to accept it on their terms...the whole thing's going to hell in a handbasket and no one has balls anymore... I am so sick of phonies masquerading as "technicians and experts" when they have no foundation, and I'm not sure where their skill level is on the mechanical side to begin with...this is a continuation of the garden web pompous crap where "you can't do that with a LT"...while I was fabricating tools and moving mountains...by the way, folks who followed that...that Craftsman LT2K is still roaring without incident...it's amazing the rabbit I pulled out of that hat, while the "experts" chanted "no no no..." BS!.

"you can't do that" doesn't mean "I" can't do it...cause I got more roots and foundation than these folks have imagination...these incompitent inexperienced folks just piss me off.

I need to know (on an aluminum cylinder...no sleeve),
1. what's the piston clearance spec...I'm guessing .006"?
2. what's the valve clearance spec...I'm guessing .006" & .012"?
3. what's the ring gap on these...I'm guessing about .010"?

does anyone know the Briggs specs for sure?...or can anyone point me to that info?
engine model # is 252417 type 0132-01

surely there's some talent on this site.

I'm headed towards a .030" over piston and some guides with a fresh cut on the seats, and I'll do the friggin' machining myself...as in "lead, follow, or just get the hell out of the way"...posers and pretenders...small minded...I feel sorry for what's been lost, and a world where no one can do anything anymore...there is no future and our children are doomed to be hosts to parasites...sad, sad, sad.

"The world has gone mad today,
And good's bad today,
And black's white today,
And day's night today,
and most guys today,
that women prize today,
Are just silly gigolo's."

...and I guess that will just about have to do for the Friday night rant...
tomorrow I'll start fresh, rip their heads off and spit down their geek pencil necks anew.

..."can't do that"...my ***.

[Archdean]

This is the best I can do for you tonight!! Other than agree with your rant!!

This is the BS link for your engine!!
http://shop.briggsandstratton.com/BShopProductListingPage.asp?MecID=100&CatalogID=56B2B9A7-283C-11D4-8886-00B0D0203414&SessionID=94F5F0BE-6B41-44F5-866B-A861C3A52CE8&SMSID=Smart+Search&ViewName=htsDIY&EngineModelNumber=252417&EngineType=0132#

[MowHoward2210]

I know a machinist who runs a machine shop/auto supply store. He finally has a younger person who is willing to stick around and learn the trade from him. It's pretty neat to see some of the older, oddball, small and multi-cylinder engines that populate his shop.

[Ingersoll444]

It is sad. I agree fully. Now there IS a turn around coming. I guess maybe we have to thank the Amercan Choppers, and the Monster Garages, and the Westcoast Choppers, etc, for bringing to the forefront the skills that have been lost. Word is that the "old time" tools are POURING out of the supplyers wherehouses, and when the tools are out there, the skills are coming. Just think, 10 years ago who knew what an english wheel was? Now 10 year old kids know what it is. I hope it contonues, and we learn that to make a living with the hands we were given, is a honarable way to make a living.

[Mark / Ohio]

I think we may be coming back to a time again where unless one is wealthy we are going to have to re-learn to do repairs ourselves whenever possible or do without.

[Ingersoll444]

LOL you mean it hasn't been like that???

Been living like that sence I was a kid, don't know how I would live without. If I was wealthyer, I would just have more tools, a better shop, and more to work on. :D

[modre]

what is wealth?
our social concept of wealth is sitting on a pile of beans...back when we were unshaven nomads milling about aimlessly, everyone had to pick up their own flint and make their own tools...the guys who were good at it got all the chicks because they could get the food, clothes, and make snug shelters...the guys who were all thumbs didn't do as well...reality was pretty cut and dried...then Egyptians invented fear thru the profession of holding the keys to life after death...and everyone who fell for it became servants to the "ruling class" thru mind control...that seemed to work out ok for the all thumbs group, so they polished and perfected that down thru history. Today we live in this illusion. If the guys who can make and fix things turned their back on the imposters who "run the show", the "thumbs" would wittle and die on the vine if they had to depend on their own abilities...therefore, to my mind, the real wealth is in the talent and ability...not the pile of beans.

One of these days another meteor is predicted to disrupt the status quo, and the incredulous reaction to that will be the social order will revert back to those who can survive in the real world by their hands and wits and those who are at a total loss. When it comes right down to it, that pile of beans is not only worthless, but a lot to carry around.

I know folks say "impossible...it can't happen here...it's always been safe and secure, and my pile of beans will dominate making me king of this empire"...but folks who think about things as they really are are now searching the sky to identify the meteor...it was an eye-opener to me to find the Vatican invested $$$$$ in an observatory in cahoots with the University of Arizona within the last decade...these are the same folks who shackled Galileo for suggesting the sun was the center, instead of the earth...they agressively squashed everything that deviated from "orthodox" dogma...now they too are trying to spot the big one that is likely to turn everything man created as his social philosophy upside down.

so
>I think we may be coming back to a time again where unless one is wealthy we are going to have to re-learn to do repairs ourselves whenever possible or do without.<

this is where we started, and this is where those who are unfortunate enough to survive the impact will revert back to...and this transiant illusion of "wealth" will again be identified with those who "can do"...the others will be exposed for the phonies they are. What good is a pile of trinkets, baubles, and paper with president's pictures on them when the guys with good hands refuse to serve?

the guys who buy their way thru today can expect their children who inherit that concept will be the losers in the long run...tho it seems like a good idea now...it's not a concrete reality. Reality is the big space rocks are still flying around and colliding...this social illusion we live in and under is transitory...the wealth is still and will always be with the guys who make and fix things and survive by their wits...and you can't change it with all your agenda oriented intentions and efforts.

as Hans Solo sarcasticly said, "laugh it up Fuzz-Ball".

in the meantime, I think folks would do well to wean themselves from the social teat and face reality as it is in the natural world...excercising and honing those skills are merely practice.

your reaction to this post may well be:
"This guy is a couple bricks shy of a full load"

Only time will tell where the chicken sh*t in the buckwheat.


at least that's the way I see it.
:1106:

[Ingersoll444]

your reaction to this post may well be:
"This guy is a couple bricks shy of a full load"


:1106:

Not at all. I think your on to a pretty good idea of how life realy is. I always found happyness in doing stuff myself. Will I survive the big crash? Who knows. Will I think I can at least muddle through? Ya, I could make it. Better then a lot of people I know.

[MowHoward2210]

what is wealth?

......<REALITY CHECK>......

at least that's the way I see it.
:1106:

Thanks for an interesting post, modre.

[jdkubotamurray]

You should be able to get a whole 11hp engine in the $3-400 range new, TSC carries the 12.5 B&S for 4-hundred something.

[Archdean]

what is wealth?
our social concept of wealth is sitting on a pile of beans...back when we were unshaven nomads milling about aimlessly, everyone had to pick up their own flint and make their own tools...the guys who were good at it got all the chicks because they could get the food, clothes, and make snug shelters...the guys who were all thumbs didn't do as well...reality was pretty cut and dried...

your reaction to this post may well be:
"This guy is a couple bricks shy of a full load"




at least that's the way I see it.


I see you not as a nutball wearing a "Tin-Foil" hat but as an interesting fellow with an educated background and a good grasp of reality!!

Please complete your profile as you have found a captive reader of your rants/dissertations!!

[Mark / Ohio]

I need to know (on an aluminum cylinder...no sleeve),
1. what's the piston clearance spec...I'm guessing .006"?
2. what's the valve clearance spec...I'm guessing .006" & .012"?
3. what's the ring gap on these...I'm guessing about .010"?

does anyone know the Briggs specs for sure?...or can anyone point me to that info?
engine model # is 252417 type 0132-01



I finally found my Briggs & Stratton Repair Manual (http://shop.briggsandstratton.com/BShopProductPage.asp?CatalogID=56B2B9AA-283C-11D4-8886-00B0D0203414&MECID=100&SessionID=9B03750E-6CA9-491D-A243-CAE76A699543&CategoryID=&lrid=&ProductID=56B2BADA-283C-11D4-8886-00B0D0203414) (270962) that I bought at the local Quality Farm & Fleet Store before it turned into Tractor Supply. It looks to have most of the info you need for want you want to do. Also has Briggs part numbers for tools for the job and a section on honing. I have never done an overhaul myself but bought the book to learn what was involved incase like you I took a notion of doing it.

For the 250000 Series it shows the following:

Valve Tappet Clearance- Intake Min. 0.005" Max. 0.007" Exhaust Min. 0.009" Max. .011"

Ring Gap- Aluminum Cylinder Bores- Compression Rings= 0.035" Oil Rings= 0.045"

About Ring Land it says for the 250000 series "If a 0.009" thick feeler gauge can be inserted between the ring and the land, the piston is worn and should be replaced."

For the 250000 series Standard Cylinder Bore Diameter= Max. 3.4375" Min. 3.4365"

The book also says - Always resize to exactly 0.010", 0.020", or 0.030" over the standard given above. If done accurately, the stock oversize piston and rings will fit correctly and proper clearances will be maintained.

BTW I don't think your three bricks short of a load. Though I might not be the one to ask because I tend to agree with you. :D

Hope the info helps you out on your quest.

*Note* On the link I gave for Briggs it says for engines older than 1981 to use Repair Manual CE8069. (Not sure if this applies to your engine.)

[lawnman tx]

Have done this many times. Be careful if you go to.30 on a BS. Is your cylinder egged. Mic the cylinder and this will tell you what to bore to. If it more than 20 thousands in parts of the cylinder and 10 at other forget it. Try to stay from 10 to 20. I use to buy the piston and rings together as a set. One problem you will run into with a bs is at the bottom of the cylinder will get thin on you. Try to use a cylinder hone a lot of oil, as you hone the cylinder and keep it moving. 3 out of 10 BS will use oil after you bore it out. Do not let the cylinder get hot as you are honing it. After about 3 min pull out and you can see how much you need to hone. If there is one small hole or cut in the cylinder you will have trouble honing it out. Keep using the mic check the top, middle and bottom. Be careful the bottom will get thin fast. If you take your time and use your mic you can do this. Make sure you mic the crankshaft and the rod. If there is any play in the rod or crank it will slap and all your work is for nothing. I will look in my old BS books and get you all the info you need . The reason that I do not do this today because is the aluminum will flake and the cost. But if you are doing it for your self go for it. It is fun after it all comes together. Note oil,oil oil cylinder and mic,mic,mic.

[modre]

good info...thanks guys.
exactly what I needed.

[modre]

so here's one for the good guys...

today, I made a few calls...ran over to see 83yo Uncle Ray...he's the guy with the big mill...I had completely forgotten he's been doing mower repairs...he disappears into the cobweb archives, and comes back with a complete rebuild kit for a 2500 series 11hp Briggs sans case gasket...crank seals, valves, std. piston w/ wrist pin and rings, points/cond...I slipped the top ring in the cylinder to see how worn and eggshaped the cylinder was...the ring gap was about .022"...I measured it all the way down in 1/2" increments...the friggin cylinder's square...blew me away...he had my parts on the shelf sitting idle for years waiting for me...that's about a 1 in a million. I have gasket material, so the case gasket is no big deal either.

Holy Crap! ... the clouds part and the sun shines...and I don't even have to talk to the numbnuts at the shops anymore... there may not be any joy in Mudville...but I'm stoked. I was expecting about $250 into this engine by working around the no-help shops who were aiming at $900...it's closer to $50...beers all around.

2 idlers and 2 belts at the shops were $50-ish...even that could have been cut in half...but I don't mind throwing them a bone for the price of an education. It's looking to me like retail prices are double wholesale...good to know if you're on the short end...not to take anything away from the guys who are trying to make a living...but good to know anyway.

the running tally now is:
$250 for the machine
$100 in parts.

I should be in for under $400 total...less than I was expecting. Today's task is cross chains on the set that came on the machine...I'll have this engine slapped together in the next few days...life is good.

[Mark / Ohio]

Wow! That is going to be one darn nice tractor for $400!

Good Job! :trink39:

[modre]

yesterday I glass beaded the block and head for max heat transfer. One more cleaning to pristine and it undergoes reconstructive surgery.

[jamescase5]

The prob is that we buy stuff at such low prices, esp overseas items, it could cost more to fix it then to replace it. Even just for the cost of the parts. Granted B&S is usa made. But you see my point. U guys ever think about the "transfer of wealth" theory? Buy goods from another country and you give them all your money, and we end up with rusted old junk goods with little value. There then rich and where then poor.

[modre]

>cost more to fix it then to replace it<

exactly.
the "ruling class" always ride on the backs of the slaves, but they can't actually do anything of value...they can only manipulate human minds...

if you can fix (or make) the stuff, you're not at the mercy of the downward spiral. the whole "America" thing was about walking into a wilderness and making things happen from the inside out...the "devils" can't do that...neither can the pretenders.

...and it avoids the pitfall when you don't fall prey, or play their game.
we're fortunate to have the previous generation's teaching of their experiences in the 1930's Depression where you "made do", and to have the background of the pioneers where there was no Walmart to run to for miracle answers...the majority of the "lemmings" can only follow the pull of the ring thru their collective noses...and that pull can only lead to the slaughter of the ignorant.

>we end up with rusted old junk goods with little value<

there's still value in everything from a sharp stone up...but not everyone can find it.

>They're then rich and we're then poor<

true wealth is in the ability to generate capitol...not in the capitol itself...as demonstrated during WWII.

[Dan Lovell]

I've got an 11 hp Briggs on a Work Horse tractor. I think I bought it in the seventies. Still runs good but burns a whole lot of oil. As long as I check it before I start working it I'm ok. There's my two cents.

Dan the new guy