New Flues for 40 HP Avery Boiler

[mbkerk]

I wanted to be the first to post to MTF's new addition... The Boiler Room forum.

I don't have time right now to do this thread justice in one post, but I will add to it on the coming days!

Last Friday afternoon we started cutting the flues out of this 1911 40-120 Avery traction engine. By Saturday evening we had the new ones in... all 55 of them! Still a lot of work to do, but we were happy to get that far.

So... here's one picture to get it going, and give you some idea what we are talking about here.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2012.jpg


Obviously the new flues are installed in this picture, so my next post will go back a bit, and tell the story!

[Ingersoll444]

That thing is a MONSTER!!!!!!!!

this thred will give a lot of insite how the boilers are set up also.

[Stumpy!!]

Now this is interesting! I'm drooling, give me more!!! As an EN in the Navy I have an interest in the old steamers, but they are $wise way out of my league.


Glad to see a steamer preserved! :fing32:

[MowHoward2210]

That thing is a MONSTER!!!!!!!!

this thred will give a lot of insite how the boilers are set up also.

So does the ladder beside it! I would imagine you'd have to be pretty stout to steer those things too.

[Ingersoll444]

So does the ladder beside it! I would imagine you'd have to be pretty stout to steer those things too.


A lot of the big steamers had some form of power steering. Not sure how they worked, but some did.

[mbkerk]

A lot of the big steamers had some form of power steering. Not sure how they worked, but some did.

The 110 Case did have power steering, as did the Case road roller. There may be others also, but I am not schooled on them yet. It involved a clutch system on the flywheel end of the crankshaft. The engine had to be running for the steering to work.

I have had the pleasure of steering the road roller when it was not steamed up, by standing along side of it and turning (and turning, and turning....) a short lever that had been clamped to the steering shaft. We had to move it out of a building to get another engine out.

I would imagine you'd have to be pretty stout to steer those things too.

The Avery does not really steer too bad as far as turning the wheel. It is REALLY geared down. I think it is somewhere close to 80 turns stop to stop. If you have to steer quickly, you are pretty winded when you get done. It is a lot more fun to make slow easy turns. You get good at planning ahead!

[mbkerk]

Our trouble started here last summer...

http://www.98dodge.com/images/averyplow1.jpg

We had a 30+ MPH wind blowing (as evidenced by the smoke) and we were pulling her pretty hard. (Very hot fire)

The combination is not a good one. You have to shovel a lot of coal, and every time you open the firebox door you get a blast of that cold air blowing right on the flue sheet. In a steam traction engine (or any boiler for that matter) this is not a good thing. You want your draft going through the grates (fire) and you don't want any holes in your fire that can let cooler air get to the flue sheet.

By the end of that day plowing, we had at least 6 flues leaking (where they go through the flue sheet.) We run the Avery at 200 PSI, so everything has to be in good shape to hold that pressure.

The engine owner, Jim B. decided we were going to put all new flues in the boiler this winter, and we would roll them in on the smoke box end, and weld them in the firebox. It takes an "R" stamp to weld on a boiler, so this part is going to be farmed out to a company Jim uses to do this kind of work. By welding them in the firebox, you still have to be careful of the flue sheet (when fireing) but it is a lot more forgiving.

A little sidebar here... It is easy to drive a steam traction engine. Anyone can do it! The challenge is to fire one! It is a huge responsibility, and one that you have to earn. I was not left alone with this engine until I had fired it on and off for over a year. I had great instructors (Rick H. and Gary M.) and until they were satisfied that I knew what I was doing... I had one or the other watching my every move! Some time we'll discuss boiler safety in this forum. You cannot imagine the damage done if one of these things ever explodes.

Anyway... on with the story... (next post by me)

[mbkerk]

Here is a shot looking in the firebox door. Gary M is in the firebox cutting flues out the sheet.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2020.jpg

He would cut about 8 or so loose on his end, then we would cut the same flues loose on the smoke box (front) end and pull them out the hand hole (clean out / inspection hole) in the front flue sheet. There are 55... 2-1/2" flues in this boiler. The flues were cut an inch or so back from the sheet, and then the what was left, the "ferrel" was cut out separately. This was the only way to get the flues to drop to the bottom of the barrel so they could be removed.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2018.jpg

Above is a shot of Gary's torch at work looking in the smoke box end of the engine. You can see the pattern we had established for removing the flues, and see some of the old flues still in the boiler. The center oval shaped hole on the bottom of the sheet is the hand hole we pulled the flues through to get them out. At this point the ferrels are still in the sheet.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2015.jpg

Above... Rick H getting ready to cut his end of the flues.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2024.jpg

Above... Me all lit up ready to take my turn. Rick and I switched out every other row of flues, but Gary stuck it out in the fire box for every flue! He had a more comfortable surroundings... and a place to sit! ROF

To be continued...!

[jodyand]

Now this is a great thread :fing32: Not all of us has ever seen how this stuff works and to be able to see how its all put together is great. Thanks for the post mbkerk :congrats: :congrats:

[JimNColorado]

Mark,
This is really fascinating! I've often wondered how much instruction went along with the purchase of a new traction engine at the turn of the last century. These are powerful and can be brutally dangerous machines. Do you recall the Medina Fairground catastrophe in Ohio a few years? What do you think happend there? Too much water flowing into an overheaded engine?
Thanks,
Jim

[Mickey]

Mark, in your area are you require to have your boiler inspected and certified? My guess is it does need to be tested and certified to ASME specs. Here any pressure vessel that is not completely full of liquid, i.e. a water heater, has to be ASME certified. This goes for all air compressors as well.

[Stumpy!!]

Absolutely fantastic! I would venture a guess that the "R" stamp is a certification to weld pressure pressure vessels?

The pics are great!

I envy you being able to have a chance to fire that steamer :not_worth

[Argee]

This is great stuff Mark...Very enlightening...very informative :fing32:

[mbkerk]

Mark,
Do you recall the Medina Fairground catastrophe in Ohio a few years? What do you think happend there? Too much water flowing into an overheaded engine?
Thanks,
Jim

Boy do I! It almost ruined the hobby for good. It was a 110 Case, and the explosion was most likely caused by low water in the boiler. The engine was sitting still, and water was low. When the engineer moved the engine, water splashed back onto the crown sheet (roof of the fire box) which was more than likely bare because of low water, therefore it was superheated. When the water hit it, it immediately flashed to steam, making more steam faster than any safety valve could relieve, and BOOM! Low water is the most dangerous situation to find yourself in on one of these engines. I have heard many stories, and been involved in one or two scary situations myself. All learning experiences! I'll pass them along as time goes on.

Mark, in your area are you require to have your boiler inspected and certified? My guess is it does need to be tested and certified to ASME specs. Here any pressure vessel that is not completely full of liquid, i.e. a water heater, has to be ASME certified. This goes for all air compressors as well.

In Minnesota we are inspected every other year. One year the boiler is ultra-sounded (Thickness of boiler is checked in different areas) and the next year we have a hydro inspection where the boiler is filled to the top with water, and then that water is pressurized to 1-1/4 times the operating pressure of the boiler. (in the case of this Avery that is 250 PSI.) Of course we have to remove the safety valves to accomplish this. The boiler is inspected for leaks when under this pressure.

Also, in Minnesota we need a "hobby class" steam engineers license to operate a boiler. It is a lifetime license. We have a steam school every summer at Rollag that runs 1 weekend in June, and there is hands on training... usually with about 8 engines running for the students, and experienced engineers on all of them to help answer questions.

The Minnesota boiler inspectors attend our show in September, and are always watching the engines, and engineers for proper operation and safety issues. They pay close attention to water glasses, and frequently quiz the engineers and firemen to see that they know what they are doing.

Absolutely fantastic! I would venture a guess that the "R" stamp is a certification to weld pressure pressure vessels?
Correct!

More on the Avery story later today...

[Ingersoll444]

Mark,
This is really fascinating! I've often wondered how much instruction went along with the purchase of a new traction engine at the turn of the last century. These are powerful and can be brutally dangerous machines. Do you recall the Medina Fairground catastrophe in Ohio a few years? What do you think happend there? Too much water flowing into an overheaded engine?
Thanks,
Jim

Man I remember that!! Didn't they find a lot of other maintance problems on that engine also, or was that just the news playing it up. To this day you hear about that.


I also wonder about the training these farmers got. You know with a rail engine those guys had YEARS of training [sorry pun not intended:D] by the time they got to run one.

[Mickey]

You think a steam traction engine was a chore to start/run, what about the early gas engines. Got a LARGE Rumley dn at Anitque Powerland, about 75-80 HP, 1800 cu in 2 cyl engine and HEY it's "what's an electic starter?". Don't know how they started this thing when new but now the operator walks the flywheel spokes to get it turning over. Gotta pay attention to when she fires up so you can get off the FW in time.

[JimNColorado]

Regarding the Ohio tragedy, I recall that the engine was newly purchased by the owner and his son. (My father-in-law lives not far from Medina). The story as he tells it, is that the owners were driving the old Case to the fairgrounds at relatively top speed at dusk on the city streets, with the local police in hot pursuit. (slow speed chase) The police were not happy with the situation and wanted to talk with the owners once the engine was parked. Perhaps the anxiety of the situation and the perceived need to get the engine off the streets, lead the operators to ignore the distress of the machine. Errors lead to errors with a very bad outcome.
I've enjoyed steam exhibitions for many, many years at the national county fairs, and hope that the steam enthusiasts continue the terrific hobby. I feared that this incident would result in government mandates that would regulate the hobby out of existence. Glad to see that I was wrong. Terrific work Mark. Thanks, Jim

[mbkerk]

On with the story...

... Sorry this is stretching out, but I am trying to cover a lot of bases here at home, you know... work, more work, run errands, VALENTINES DAY! and then a little time for MTF! Look at it as a continuing saga, like Wingnuts "Pappy Chronicles!"

So... here is a picture of all the flues after they were removed.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2033.jpg

They don't look too bad for 15 + years of use, since the engine was put together. Jim said they were like new when he got the boiler, he thought they had been fired once. There was still writing on the outside of the flues back then. (They had the cover off the steam dome and could see them that way) We are using a new water treatment in our boilers at the show, and the lighter gray rust is supposed to be "good" rust... protects the iron rather that corrodes it. Don't ask me to explain this... it is over my head.The powers that be like the way it is working. These new flues will be a good test for that treatment as we are starting with bare iron now.

Below is a shot of the ferrels (flue ends)we cut out of the flue sheet after the flues were removed. Note how we "nicked" them with a torch, and then used an air chisel to fold them in and get them out of the sheet. In the background you can see a couple of the grates we removed to make the fire box easier to work in.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2030.jpg

Next, a shot of the fire box end flue sheet, empty and ready for the new flues. This end will have the flues welded after they are rolled.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2034.jpg

Below... a very rare shot of the inside of the barrel. You will not see this again, at least on this boiler as there are no hand holes that can see through the flues! This is looking down the barrel from the firebox end. Opposite end is the front flue sheet, (smoke box).

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2038.jpg

The picture is crooked as I had to tilt the camera so the flash and the lens would line up with the holes in the flue sheet. (picture is taken through the flue sheet.) The large bolts you see on top are called "stay bolts" and go from the front sheet, over the top of the back flue sheet and the crown sheet, to the back of the boiler. I think they are 1-1/2" bolts, and are about 10 feet long. they hold the top of the front flue sheet in under the extreme pressure (208 PSI) of operation. The flues themselves also hold the sheet in place. The pipe you see on top is the main steam line to the engine itself. It elbows up into the steam dome on top of the boiler. On the steam dome end of the pipe is a valve connected to a rod that goes to a lever on the engineers platform. This is of course the throttle!

Note the line where the rust changes color... This represents the level of water we keep in the boiler. Where the red colored areas are... that is steam. Grey areas are water. Note the flues are always covered with water.

Also on the left side of the barrel you can see the "butt strap" this is the seam where the ends of the rolled barrel meet. This particular boiler is 5/8" thick. There are butt straps on the inside, and the outside of the barrel... (seam is sandwiched in between them) so in this area the iron is about 2" thick! If you look in the first picture of the engine in this thread, or in the plowing picture, you can see the outside butt strap.

One more interesting picture...

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2039.jpg

Here you can see the top of the barrel where the steam dome is attached. The pipe is the one I just spoke of. Inside the steam dome is the throttle valve. The steam dome is on the top of the boiler so you can get dry steam for the engine. In this case I am using the term "dry steam" to mean steam without water mixed in. Since the engine may be moving... i.e. plowing when your using it (vs. belt work) water can be sloshing around in the boiler. You do not want water to get into the engine. This is called "priming" and since water does not compress, it is lethal to a steam engine. By taking steam out of the dome, the chances of getting water in your steam are reduced substantially. You can see the outside of the steam dome in the pictures above.

Another thing to note in this picture is the method used for cutting the hole in the barrel for the steam dome. There were no cutting torches, or welders in 1911. The hole was made by drilling a series of holes in a circle, very close together, and then knocking the plate out. You can see evidence of this in the picture if you look close. I did not know that, or had never thought of it... until I saw it myself and asked my mentors about it!

Thanks so much for the interest in this thread! Your keeping me motivated!

The next installment... Installing the new flues!

[farmallmaniac]

wow! Thats so cool. I'd love to come to one of your shows sometime since they can't be too far from me.

[Argee]

Thanks so much for the interest in this thread! Your keeping me motivated!

Oh no.......thank you for sharing this with us...I'm sure I speak for many when I say, I find this very intriguing and enlightening!

[mbkerk]

I don't have any pictures of the new flues, or of them being cut to fit, because I was one of the guys doing that job! Jim, Gary and I cut the new flues, and Rick and Kelly installed them just as fast as we could cut them! We started about 8:00 Saturday morning, and had them all fit by noon! It took us until about 8:00 Saturday night to get them rolled in and beaded over. That is not easy work... and it is very noisy!

Here is a picture Kelly took when he was in the firebox installing the new flues. This end was rolled in, but not beaded over as they are going to be welded. The smoke box (front) end looks very similar to this at this point... about the same amount of flue left hanging over the sheet.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%201.jpg

This next shot shows the roller we used to roll the flues into the flue sheet. The tool spins in the tube, and works itself tighter and tighter, pressing the tube tight to the sheet. This, in combination with the beading is what makes them (hopefully) not leak! Sorry... I should have got a better picture of the roller.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2010.jpg

This is the home-brew drill setup (below) that we used to turn the roller. This job could be done by hand, i.e. with a ratchet, but it is hard enough with power tools. The round device on the end of the drill chuck is another gear reduction. You better be hanging on tight when the roller starts to get tight in the flue, and get ready to let go of the trigger. I don't think it would stall the drill.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2011.jpg

Now... a picture of Kelly M. with the beading tool. (This process is also called "bucking" the flues over. It is a big air chisel with a special beading tool in the end of it. Again, this is another job that used to, and still can be done with a hammer and a hand tool. No thanks! You can see some of the flues have been beaded over, and some have not.

Note how Kelly fits right in the smoke box! He gets nominated for all of the tight work! We all took our turn, but nobody else could "get into" the work like Kelly!

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%206.jpg

This is just a fun shot I took of Gary when I was in the fire box rolling flues. It is looking out the fire box door from the inside.

http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2040.jpg

Continued...

[mbkerk]

Finally... The crew that was involved in the project, (at least to this point) and how clean we managed to stay!

In the first picture, from L to R is the engine owner Jim B, myself, Rick H, and Gary M. Rick took me in on this crew 3 years ago, and for that I am very grateful. He and Gary taught me how to fire, and as far as I am concerned, they are two of the best! Also , thanks to Jim for entrusting me with his very rare, (and very expensive) piece of history!

Not in the picture, (because he was actually still working) is Kelly M. (below) Kelly is Gary's son, and he started on the engine about the same time I did. He is another very conscientious engineer, and another good friend! He also manages to always be sure he is the dirtiest at the end of the day ROF
http://www.98dodge.com/images/avery%20flues%2032.jpg
http://www.98dodge.com/images/kelly.jpg

That's where the project stands now. We will have it back in the shop in a couple of weeks for the welders, the boiler inspectors, and to put it all back together! We plan on steaming it up on April 8th. More on that later!

[JimNColorado]

Mark,
Thanks for the great pics. Looks like an incredible project that's being well done. Are the new flue's custom made, or could you use a standard grade, standard dimension steel pipe? Thanks,
Jim

[Argee]

Mark,
What can I say....:omg: WoW :omg:...What a project!! And the picture of all you fellas together, doing something you absolutely enjoy...That is fantastic...Thank you for sharing a facinating part of history with the rest of us. :fing32:

[Ingersoll444]

BIGGGG time what Argee says!!!!!!


As a steam FREAK, I never thought I would be able to see the guts so to speek of an engine/boiler. Only wish I could be there when that bad boy gets fired up!!!!!

[Maybar]

I'm glad to see the drill motor doesn't seem to have a trigger lock that can be inadvertently locked. Been there, dun that, under a case tractor and believe me it ain't a fun ride.

[Ingersoll444]

LOL Yup done that also. With one of them old skill 1/2" drills that look a lot like that one. WACK!!!!!!!!!

[drbailey]

You might remember me mention my freind from the old school days . Paul , He is the guy that heads up the Adams county fair @ Mendon Ill.
Here are some photos of his work with steam.

[wolfgang]

Hi Mark
GREAT pictures of the big Avery, keep them coming.

Your Buddy
wolfgang

[jodyand]

:Welcome1: wolfgang are you part of the Avery gang?

[mbkerk]

Yeah... :Welcome1: Paul!

Glad you finally posted, and enjoyed the thread!

Now, how about some pictures of that mighty Kubota...!

[Carl]

Great pictures! Cause us wrenches to remember that tearing a garden tractor apart is nothing. We make a mistake and it won't start or break a part.

But when working with steam Particularly with the pressure that is inside there you really have to know what you are doing. You can always tell a gas explosion from a steam explosion. Gas will blow out a wall or lift the roof, but steam will level the building!

[mbkerk]

Got word tonight... We are set to get the flues welded, and get everything re-plumbed and tested the weekend of March 18th! I'll have the camera! Stay tuned...!

Steam up on April 8th!!!:bannana::bannana::bannana:

[Mark / Ohio]

Hey Mark,

Just wanted to say thanks for all those great pictures and descriptions! :thanku:

I'd been following your pictures and progress while on lunch at work but kept forgeting to post a thankyou for them once I got home. :o

[Carl]

Is the team going to be able to certify the inspection? Or is a mechanical inspector interested enough in the project to come out on a weekend?

Just went to Henry Ford Museum this last saturday. Spent most of my time in the old steam and power section. Some of the old mine pumps were really in bad shape. Could have been corrosion from setting around unused. But I can see it getting that bad while in use too!

Glad the states adopt the old steam tractors as boilers to be inspected. It might be a pain at times, but better than a catastrophic failure.