Holding your zero past what you sighted it in for. [Archive] - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information

: Holding your zero past what you sighted it in for.


Grasshopper67
11-05-2010, 07:32 AM
I was zeroing in a new (won at raffle, YEAH) Weatherby Vanguard .300 win mag it at 100 yards. Got it dead on bullseye. Now what kind of group can I expect when I go out lets say 250 yards. I am sure the scope power has alot to do with it.

I also zeroed in my Remington 541-T HB (best rifle I have ever owned) at 50 yards an again got it dead on bullseye. Had a group of 10 rounds within .75 inch of each other. I then tried to hit my target (a paper plate) at 100 yards and didn't even hit it. Can I attribute this to the .22LR round dropping?

I have been around guns my entire life but mostly handguns and rifles with iron sights. Any insight is appreciated.

MF283
11-05-2010, 08:29 AM
From 50-100 yards, i wouldn't think you'd have that much drop, are you using LR or short?

Ronnie

ancy
11-05-2010, 08:55 AM
They will drop and to help you find where you are hitting put a large piece of cardboard behind your target and shoot 3-5 times and go check it out. That's my trick anyway and works great but remember to tape your holes up every time you go check it out so you know your changes worked.

gray wolf
11-05-2010, 10:05 AM
thats a great cartrige.I have the same gun in 7mag.that should only drop a inch or so at 250.best hold on where you want to hit at that range.as far as the 22 that should carry the one hundred yards no problem.if I had to choose one rifle the 22 would be it.don,t sell that little thing short.

marlboro180
11-05-2010, 11:27 AM
Why would one sight in a .300 win mag at 100 yards? Sight it in at 250 to start with.

250zero -1.5" .08" 2.1" 2.5" 1.9" zero -3.2" -7.8" -14.1" -22.2" -32.4"http://www.udarrell.com/300-winchester-magnum-150.htm

Team_Green
11-05-2010, 01:22 PM
Why would one sight in a .300 win mag at 100 yards? Sight it in at 250 to start with.

250zero -1.5" .08" 2.1" 2.5" 1.9" zero -3.2" -7.8" -14.1" -22.2" -32.4"http://www.udarrell.com/300-winchester-magnum-150.htm

200 at the very least..

J.Gibson
11-05-2010, 03:52 PM
I generally sight all my high power rifles in at 1 inch high at 200 yards. With that, you can hold dead on a deer sized from point blank range out to 300 yards and not have to adjust your hold. That works well for Western Pa, 300 yards is an extemely long shot around here, out west, it's another story. I shoot only reloads, and most reloading manuals have very good trajectory charts in them. Hornady is my favorite. If you know your ammunitions velocity and the grain weight of your bullet you can find the best "zero" for your rifle. With a .270 140 grain boattail traveling around 2900 fps for example, 1 inch high at 200 yards puts you roughly 3 1/2 inches low at 300 yards, and around 2 inches high at 100 yards. Well within the kill zone if your hold was dead center of the chest. This will vary between bullet types and loads. Best to try your rifle out with the ammunition you'll be shooting and see exactly where you are. Your .300 will be a little different, but should be in the ballpark.

DeepSouth
11-05-2010, 09:12 PM
I have been shooting a Browning 300 win mag since I was 16. I sight it in at 3" high at 100 yds, making it darn close to dead on at 200 yds with rem 180 grain NP. I have a 6.5 to 20 by 50 mm Leupold scope, but have only used max magnification for one 430 yd shot in the upper peninsula of MI. Groups depend on the shooter the most, then the gun and ammunition. With the Remington ammunition I get groups that stack holes out to 300 yds regularly. I have had two rifles that were the same and have one shoot great and one only good. I have gotten really lucky with the groups that my gun will hold.

gray wolf
11-06-2010, 08:16 AM
one thing I,ve learned over the years with ammo.every company makes there rounds alittle different.try three different brands of ammo.one will group alot better than the rest.guns are all individuals.just like people.

ZTT42
11-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Try using a ballistics calculator like this one for the ammo you plan to use. http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascxSome study will show you some good reasons for not sighting in a 300 mag at 100 yards. Fer instance, if zeroed in at 100 yards using data I tried, your bullet would drop 3 inches at 200 yards and 11.3 inches at 300 yards. If instead, you zeroed at 250 yards, the bullet would hit 2.6 inches high at 100 and 3.6 inches low at 300 yards. That gives a trajectory that can hit an elk anywhere within that range without adjustment of your sight picture. Also check out "maximum point blank range". This is an optimum range for any given caliber that allows for this type of non-adjustment sight-in. (it's not shooting something so close you can't miss)

As for your .22, using the same calculator with some ammo I have here gives the following: when zeroed at 50 yards, a 100 yard shot will be 4.5" low - easily missing an 8-inch pie plate. it drops off drastically after that -9.2" at 125 yds and -15.5" at 150 yds.

Hope you can put that magnum to use where that kind of firepower is useful. Plan an elk hunting trip in the mountains!

silver hair deere
11-07-2010, 11:18 PM
You all need to learn kentucky wind-age

LilysDad
11-08-2010, 08:02 AM
if I had to choose one rifle the 22 would be it.don,t sell that little thing short.

Are you going to hunt deer with a .22?

marlboro180
11-08-2010, 10:44 AM
Hey Grasshopper- Try this software out from Remington. Pretty handy to get you in the ballpark..


http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx

DeepSouth
11-08-2010, 08:49 PM
There have been many deer killed with a .22, not my preferred caliber though!

gray wolf
11-09-2010, 09:06 AM
getting back to this.yes to answer lilys dads ?.yes if it was legal I would shoot the 22 rifle for deer.last evening going to my place where I hunt.I walked up on a 4 pt .within fifty yds.I did,nt shoot that deer but with a 22 rifle he would of dropped right there.I think if everyone used a 22 there would,nt be so many people getting shot.simply because shots would only be taken at lest than 100 yards.you really don,t need a canon to kill deer.suffice it to say. I know from alot of experience.

DeepSouth
11-10-2010, 12:47 AM
This is true, there is no need for a cannon to kill deer. BUT bigger guns are fun to shoot!

MacLawn
11-10-2010, 09:36 AM
I generally sight all my high power rifles in at 1 inch high at 200 yards. With that, you can hold dead on a deer sized from point blank range out to 300 yards and not have to adjust your hold. That works well for Western Pa, 300 yards is an extemely long shot around here, out west, it's another story. If you know your ammunitions velocity and the grain weight of your bullet you can find the best "zero" for your rifle.

J, same here in southeast - unless you are hunting over a big bean field, shots beyond 75 yards or so are rare. Most people here have told me deer they kill are almost always under 50 yards; woods are just too thick to see very far. So, you really don't need such a flat shooting rifle here.

Speaking of point blank range you mentioned, in the October 21, 2005 issue of Outdoor Life, Jim Carmichael (gun writer for Outdoor Life, now retired) wrote a great article about "point blank zero". Here is part of what he wrote about point blank zero:

However, if the manufacturer guaranteed that the same load would hit the vital zone of a whitetail buck all the way out to 260 yards, without any need to aim high or low or compensate for trajectory in any way, we'd certainly sit up and take notice.

As it so happens, the 260-yard figure used above isn't for a razzle-dazzle new magnum caliber, but-get this-it's the PBZ of none other than the old-timer .30-30 with Winchester's 150-grain Silvertip bullet! But how can that be when we've been brought up to believe that the .30-30 is good for about 150 yards max? Check any ballistics chart and you'll see that when sighted-in at 100 yards, the bullet will land nearly 8 inches low at 200 yards and twice as low at 250. So what's the catch?

Shooting Down the Pipe
There's no catch once we free ourselves from the delusional mind-set that bullets are going to hit where we think we've aimed them. When practicing at a club range with a rifle firmly propped on a solid bench and sandbags, and with the precise distance known, it's no difficult task to drill the center out of the ace of spades. Likewise, with our feet propped up before a cozy fire, ballistics charts read like gentle poetry. But out in the real world where wild animals dwell, our fantasy of "surgical" bullet placement, as one writer used to put it, vanishes like a wisp of gun smoke in a chill New England breeze.

I have the article on my computer; it is one of the best things I have ever read about ballistics. Maybe y'all can find it in Outdoor Life's archives.

Good hunting!

marlboro180
11-10-2010, 10:45 AM
J,
Shooting Down the Pipe
There's no catch once we free ourselves from the delusional mind-set that bullets are going to hit where we think we've aimed them. When practicing at a club range with a rifle firmly propped on a solid bench and sandbags, and with the precise distance known, it's no difficult task to drill the center out of the ace of spades. Likewise, with our feet propped up before a cozy fire, ballistics charts read like gentle poetry. But out in the real world where wild animals dwell, our fantasy of "surgical" bullet placement, as one writer used to put it, vanishes like a wisp of gun smoke in a chill New England breeze.


Good hunting!

I am going to look for that article, as it is very well put.

DeepSouth
11-10-2010, 06:29 PM
I think I remember reading that article. I have been to the woods around here a few times and my 12 gauge would be a good gun, because it is so thick. Hunting my food plot on my own property I use my 300 mag, 250 yds max shot.

LilysDad
11-10-2010, 07:56 PM
yes if it was legal I would shoot the 22 rifle for deer.you really don,t need a canon to kill deer.suffice it to say.

When I was in N california, an Indian told me about shooting a black bear with a .22. It took about 6 or 7 shoots, but he killed it. Am I the only one who thinks this is inhumane hunting? If you want to challenge yourself, limit yourself to one shot.

MacLawn
11-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Another article I read waay back by Jack O'Connor (deceased), busted the myth that bigger, slower moving bullets are better in brush - he proved that actually flatter shooting and smaller bullets do better in brush than the bigger, slower bullets. His research showed that if a bullet hits a small twig, etc., the faster trajectory/flatter shooting bullet (like .270, etc.) does better than shotgun slug, or so called "brush gun" like many think the .30.30, etc. is. Of course, he proved that ANY bullet that hits anything will probably not do its job.

As usual, the key is simply using a proven gun that you shoot well and like, and hitting the crit in vitals. Me, I would not attempt to shoot any gun beyond about 250 yards. That's just me; not saying it won't kill the crit beyond that distance, I just don't trust myself and me old eyes too far out.

Hey, Deep, you're not the one working on my boat trailer spring, are you?

JakeBlues652
11-14-2010, 03:39 PM
WOW. these people are saying at least 200 yds for a .300 win. i have a .338 win sighted in at 50 yards!!! around here, if you make a 50 yard shot, its far!!! the rifle that i normally hunt with (243) i can shoot at 150 with hornady 100 grain light mag with about an inch drop.

daerca
02-17-2011, 09:35 PM
You should give the game your hunting enough respect to use a big enough caliber to make a clean kill every shot instead of letting it suffer when you wound it with your. 22

Tencubed
02-18-2011, 12:05 AM
I was zeroing in a new (won at raffle, YEAH) Weatherby Vanguard .300 win mag it at 100 yards. Got it dead on bullseye. Now what kind of group can I expect when I go out lets say 250 yards. I am sure the scope power has alot to do with it.

I have been around guns my entire life but mostly handguns and rifles with iron sights. Any insight is appreciated.

Congratulations on winning the rifle. The Vanguard is a well made rifle and the 300 WM is a popular cartridge. As others have said I'd take the zero out another 150 yards or so. As to the size of the group, you will be shooting two and a half times as far so you can typically expect the group to open up by that factor.

There's lots more to it than just the power of the scope. Size of the crosshairs, parallax, and scope clarity to mention three of the more common issues. Magnification power makes a difference and comes into play at all ranges. The higher the power the harder it is to hold the target steady. This is the impression at any rate but the fact is you are holding the same at any scope power. Shooting from a bench is far different than shooting at game in the field. This type of shooting is best practiced from the normal field positions. Standing, kneeling, sitting and prone. Often it's impossible to find even footing or a relaxed sitting position when game is sited. Practice shooting from actual field positions if you want to become a proficient field shooter.

Since you are sighting in at 100 yards I'm guessing the average ranges where you hunt are quite limited. I'm always concerned about using a very high power rifle in heavy brush. The bullet will pass thru a deer and continue to who knows where unless the shooter is very careful to have a backstop hill or such to stop the flight. For this close range, out to two hundred yards or so, I really prefer a larger bore rifle with less velocity and range. One of my favorites is the venerable 45-70. I would also prefer a 30-30 to the heavy magnums. If I am hunting elk in open country or deer where long shots are the norm then a calibre such as yours really shines.

One poster mentioned having a 338 WM and sighting for 50 yards. I know I'm in the minority on a lot of this and not trying to make this poster mad nor am I belittling his choice of rifle but the majority of the energy he is sending downrange is being spent on the other side of the animal. At these very short ranges I'm very happy with a short, light TC carbine with a 16 1/4" barrel in the aforementioned 45-70 calibre. Light loads and a softpoint bullet do wonders on deer, elk and bear at these short ranges. Bullets almost always exit but are pretty much spent in the animal. For long range shooting either of these Win Mags will get the job done. My preference is for the '06 with 165 grain bullets or a 6MM wildcat I built up years ago.

The most important factor is, IMO, practice and lots of it. I've met two people in my life that I would consider to be the fabled "natural shots". The rest of us improve by study and practice. Understanding the effects of wind and light are vital to being a decent shooter. Very few hunters spend a reasonable amount of time and ammunition preparing for the killing they set out to do.

It's been posted in this thread that an adequate calibre should be used to prevent undue suffering of the target animal. Truth is a person shooting a 22 well is way more apt to accomplish a clean kill than the one using the latest factory offering boomenblaster that couldn't hit a barn if he were locked inside it. Most of the folks that come to our range with heavy rifles flinch. Simple fact is that we all do this to some extent. It's a natural reaction to the punch of a heavy weapon and the muzzle blast that accompanies the shot. The trick is is to control this flinch until the bullet has left your control, that is has exited the barrel. Then you can flinch all you want and it will do no damage to the bullets path. I've seen experienced hunters that would shut their eyes and turn their head when dropping the hammer on an empty rifle handed to them. Once they know the problem the cure is relatively simple. Practice with light rifles to relearn the techniques we all, or nearly all, learned with a 22. Then work up to the heavies.

Once a person is able to control their muscle reaction and are able to concentrate on the job of keeping the sights on target it's time to get to bullet placement and learning to read the range, wind and light. For short ranges I'm generally opposed to optics IF a persons eyes allow it. I'm pushing 70 and have lost a lot of the eyesight I enjoyed even 15 years ago. Now for ranges beyond about a hundred yards I use glass. Two or four power scopes are easier to hold on target an clear up the blur. Higher powers at the short ranges tend to become a matter of deciding which part of the fur blur do you want to poke a hole in. For longer ranges I'm a big fan of fixed power scopes due to the inherent reduction of parallax involved. Very expensive variable power scopes can be adjusted to virtually zero parallax but then you end up adjusting the power for the area you're in. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself with the scope on the high power and the game in close. I stick with six power and below for hunting scopes but use up to 32 power for some target and varmint work where solid rests are the norm.

Hmmm, this is getting way too long. The above is all just my personal opinion based on a tad of experience and a lot of error. YMMV.

Mike

marlboro180
02-18-2011, 01:34 AM
Very , very well put Mike. :fing32: Thanks for sharing your impressions and experiences .

Tencubed
02-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Very , very well put Mike. :fing32: Thanks for sharing your impressions and experiences .


Thanks for the compliment. I'm somewhat passionate about heavy rifles in brushy areas due to a few bad situations I've seen or been aware of. One was when a hunter shot a small doe at about 80 yards using a standard pointed soft point bullet out of an '06. The bullet passed thru the lungs of the deer and exited out thru a brushy area and over a hill top. It hit a woman nearly a mile away in the head killing her instantly. The hunter was checked out of the area as the police were looking for who fired the shot. Since he had a deer and had fired just the one round it was assumed the bullet was not his. When he later saw a map in the local paper showing where the deceased was found and a fan shaped marker of the probable bullet path he returned and took a deputy to where he had shot from. The bullet had traversed thru nearly a quarter mile of brush prior to topping the slope and being in open country.

He was exonerated from any blame in the matter but never hunted again. He really never recovered from what happened that day.

My point of telling this sad story is to point out that brush will not always act as a backstop for bullets. It's vital to know the termination point of every bullet you fire. Passing a shot is not that hard to do and a true sportsman will always error on the side of caution.

This same kind of scenario is very applicable to home defense. So often I see folks that have an SKS or similar weapon they plan on using in case their home needs defending. The weapon is lethal and effective for sure but where will that bullet stop? My Mini-14 in 223 is far too much rifle for inside the house IMO. It will pass thru too many walls and travel cross country a long ways. If you're in the city and send a dozen rounds after a bad guy in your living room what effect will this have on the neighborhood? Just something to think about.

As kind of a side note, the lady in the first part of this post was my wife's aunt. Happened when we were both little kids and didn't know each other. The deputy that investigated the shooting was my uncle.

Mike

Tencubed
02-18-2011, 01:58 PM
I also zeroed in my Remington 541-T HB (best rifle I have ever owned) at 50 yards an again got it dead on bullseye. Had a group of 10 rounds within .75 inch of each other. I then tried to hit my target (a paper plate) at 100 yards and didn't even hit it. Can I attribute this to the .22LR round dropping?

This part of your post kind of got ignored. Nice group by the way. :thThumbsU

The 22 drops off quit rapidly beyond 100 yards. This CCI ammo site gives a good bit of information on the various 22 rounds they manufacture and will give you an idea of what's going on. They have the comparison option which I like, you can see what other rimfire calibers do in comparison to the standard 22.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/

Mike

marlboro180
02-18-2011, 04:23 PM
This part of your post kind of got ignored. Nice group by the way. :thThumbsU I agree. And I am envious of that nice 541 you have. Always wanted one myself as they are built like the 700's but then again I like just about anything bull barreled ... :D.

I doubt that a paper plate would be missed 50 yards further out (100 yds) if you had it zeroed at 50 yds . At 150 yds, sure.... the drop there in a standard high velocity 22 Lr is a little less than 11", if zeroed at 100 yds.

But this also depends on the 22Lr rounds you are shooting. Are the match grade ( slower, more accurate at shorter range, but drop like a rock further out) or are you shooting something like a CCI stinger? ( light,fasst, flatter shooting out a ways.. )

Here is why I am asking...look at this list..

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/22lrballistics.htm

BTW, here is a nice web-based simple program from Winchester to "visualize" your 300, or any other standard centerfire cartridge from them.

http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

Alan in Vermont
02-18-2011, 09:10 PM
WOW. these people are saying at least 200 yds for a .300 win. i have a .338 win sighted in at 50 yards!!! around here, if you make a 50 yard shot, its far!!! the rifle that i normally hunt with (243) i can shoot at 150 with hornady 100 grain light mag with about an inch drop.

Yeah but,,,,,,, if you zeroed that cannon for 200 you could hold dead on a deer sized critter out to 250 and always be in the kill zone.

On the other hand, since I have to explain it it is obvious you don't have a clue about zeroes or trajectories. By the way, do you get your 50 yd zero by shooting offhand at a refrigerator carton?

If you only do 50 yard shots what do you need that cannon for?

gray wolf
02-19-2011, 01:02 PM
ld just because that guy was a indian doesn,t mean he knows where ta place that piece of lead.that same bear shot in the right spot.would hit the ground with hardly a wiggle.I stick by what I said about the 22 caliber.there would be a lot more fine shots in this world if they shot that little bullet.shoot ground hogs in the head from zero ta one hundred yds and you,ll under stand what a fine caliber that really is.and as tc said bullets fly a lot farther than most people think.if ya ever watched tracer rounds flying all over the place ya can understand what projectiles really do.