GR Gas vs Diesel

[Private_Pyle]

I'm looking at getting a tractor for my new home, and I'm looking seriously at the Kubota GR machines. I have to mow about 3 acres and have a mostly sloped yard some parts flat some parts very steep.

I would like to be able to plow my 100 ft driveway with the same machine in the winter when the snow is less than 6 inches or so and to handle the wet slushy stuff. I'm getting a honda track driven snowblower for a backup and to handle the deeper stuff.

I'm looking for opinions on gas vs diesel engines. I've never owned a diesel before, but from what I understand, they hold up much better over the long haul before they need major overhauls. The dealer quoted me prices of $6130 for the gas including the 48" mower and $6964 for the diesel. When I'm spending that much already, what's another $800, or is it a complete waste of time?

Do you think that ag tires and weights would be able to plow the driveway with 4wd? Or would chains still be required. It's a paved drive, so I don't want to mar the blacktop with chains if it can be avoided. The 4wd is the main reason I'm looking at the GR mower. I can get a good deal on a used John Deere 425 all wheel steering with 700 hrs and 54" mulching deck and chains included if 4wd will still need chains to open up the driveway.

I like Slammers posts of the pics pulling that hill. I think I have one hill that'll have to mow part of that is at least that steep, or slightly steeper. These seem like well built highly capable machines, but is the diesel worth the extra money?

Thanks!

[Wingnut]

I would get a Diesel; it uses 30-40% less fuel than gasoline, they are built stronger. The diesel engine will last twice hours of a gas and half the maintenance in the long run!
The torque on a diesel will beat gas hands down!!!!!!

[Durwood]

Was the gas engine water cooled?

Dur

[ducati996]

Was the gas engine water cooled?

Dur

No Air cooled 25 HP kohler....Diesel is the better option, adds to resale, along with longevity

[Durwood]

No Air cooled 25 HP kohler....Diesel is the better option, adds to resale, along with longevity

I agree Duc. Had it been a water cooled engine it wouldn't have been a bad choice though.

Dur

[Private_Pyle]

Thanks guys! I guess that rules out the gas version of this tractor. The gas version is a 20hp engine compared to the 21 for the diesel, and the gas version is air cooled.

In an apples to oranges comparison, how would you rate a 2wd JD 425 all wheel steering with a 20hp water cooled engine to the Kubota GR2100 4wd diesel? Which would you choose and why?

Sorry to be asking so many questions, but this is my first property that requires me to have more than a push mower. Thanks!

[Durwood]

What is the price difference?

Dur

[Dachshund]

I'm not a big diesel fan, so the $800 difference would be an easy choice for me! :trink40:

[Private_Pyle]

Kubota is $6900 new, the JD is $4000 with 700 hrs.

[Bohica]

Go for the diesel. You should also get the 54" deck for that price unless you specifically request the 48". The Glidesteer on the GR allows it to turn tighter than mowers with 4 wheel steering. I would go with the 2100.

[Mickey]

I guess I'll be the odd man out. Having both a gas GT and a diesel CUT I've got a foot in both camps. Have had gas GT for 30+yrs and I'm on my second larger diesel. Gas engine durability has never been an issue. Fortunately for me, I don't have the winter use experience as many other have.

While the diesel will not use as much fuel as the gaser, in most places diesel is now higher price and I don't see that changing back. Locally diesel is selling for $.50/gal more than gas. How long do you intend to have this tractor and how many hrs do you est you will be putting on it annually? The gas engine should be good for 2k hrs and the diesel twice that. Are you going to be able to take advantage of that?

On a use basis, the gaser is going to be less fussy. No liquid cooling system and all that intales in PM and repairs i.e. water pump, tsat, antifreeze, etc. Winter starting is going to be easier with the gas. Run out of fuel, the gas engine is going to be a lot more forgiving in getting started again.

I wouldn't let the alure of DIESEL POWER over shadow the practial aspect of owership.

[ducati996]

What Mickey says makes absolute sense and I'm inclined to agree with him
but the attraction of Diesel would make me make the decision that is not the most
economically sound. It sounds like the price difference is close enough that it can be considered. The price of diesel fuel is higher and its so difficult to tell where its going to go tomorrow, likewise with gas prices. A lot of its a seasonal thing, hopefully they will both level out.
I have a gas powered 20 HP Kohler Cub along with a 20HP JD compact diesel. If i was able to get a diesel motor in the cub I would have gone that route. I like watercooled engines, and love the effieciency of diesel motors. The newer diesels no longer suffer the "older" models wintertime issues. I wonder if the overall savings on fuel, plus the added resale value, longevity of the diesel motor will offset the additional price as well as the higher diesel fuel costs of today....its a simple math equation i guess now

Duc

[Wingnut]

Diesel cost and Avg of 50 cent per gallon more than Gasoline or 1/5 (20%) more per gallon ($2.00 gallon for gas, $2.50 per gallon for Diesel)

If the Diesel is only running 30% (AVG.) more a efficient than Gasoline per gallon you are still saving 10%

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Diesel engine's efficience of a 10% saving is decent saving over gasoline engine.

So when can you realize the saving? Answer: After you Pay for the engine.
To make this simple:

Tractor_______Gasoline____Diesel
gal. per Mth______10_______7_______For the same work
Cost per Mth___$20.00___$17.43_____For Fuel (Gas $2.00 Diesel $2.49 per gallon)
Saving_________----_____$2.57_____per month

Cost of Diesel Engine is $800 it will take you 26 years before you will see a saving over gas. You have 3 arces your not going to save anything by going to diesel.

I am a big Diesel Fan I love the engine, its up to you on how the tractor feels to you. The numbers don't had up for you on buying a diesel.

[Durwood]

Diesel cost and Avg of 50 cent per gallon more than Gasoline or 1/5 (20%) more per gallon ($2.00 gallon for gas, $2.50 per gallon for Diesel)

If the Diesel is only running 30% (AVG.) more a efficient than Gasoline per gallon you are still saving 10%

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Diesel engine's efficience of a 10% saving is decent saving over gasoline engine.

So when can you realize the saving? Answer: After you Pay for the engine.
To make this simple:

Tractor_______Gasoline____Diesel
gal. per Mth______10_______7_______For the same work
Cost per Mth___$20.00___$17.43_____For Fuel (Gas $2.00 Diesel $2.49 per gallon)
Saving_________----_____$2.57_____per month

Cost of Diesel Engine is $800 it will take you 26 years before you will see a saving over gas. You have 3 arces your not going to save anything by going to diesel.

I am a big Diesel Fan I love the engine, its up to you on how the tractor feels to you. The numbers don't had up for you on buying a diesel.

Also if you happen to live in the extreme cold then gas is a good choice. No additives you have to add to the fuel and don't have to keep it plugged in so it will start.


Dur

[Mickey]

Diesel cost and Avg of 50 cent per gallon more than Gasoline or 1/5 (20%) more per gallon ($2.00 gallon for gas, $2.50 per gallon for Diesel)

If the Diesel is only running 30% (AVG.) more a efficient than Gasoline per gallon you are still saving 10%

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Diesel engine's efficience of a 10% saving is decent saving over gasoline engine.
I think we went to different schools. $2.50 is 25% more than $2.00 and $2.00 is 20% less than $2.50. :hatsoff:

My memory may be getting a little fuzzy but I seem to remember that while Fuel oil has a higher energy content than gasolene it's less than 10% more. As for thermal efficiency between the engines, if all were equal other than thermal cycle (they usually aren't ) an auto cycle engine is in the mid to higher-mid 20% range while the diesel cycle is in the mid-30% range. In todays world with diesel going for a lot more than gas, fuel cost are likely going to be about the same between the 2 engine designs if you are buying at the pump and paying all the road tax on both.

I still believe if you live in a cold climate and winter operation is needed, the air cooled gas engine is going to be less of an issue. With that said, I still like my diesel but I don't have to deal with cold winter operation.

[JDFANATIC]

If the GR is your choice and the diesel is in your price-range, then go with it. The torque of the diesel puts you in a whole different league. My favorite analogy is: go to the dealer and at idle engage the mower deck; do this with the gas motor and then the diesel. Guess which will stall? The JD425 is a great machine, but 700 hrs is getting up in age and if the maint. was even suspect, I would be looking other places.

Cheers

JDFANATIC

[Private_Pyle]

Thanks guys, now I'm really confused again. :)

Since I do live in a cold climate, I have to consider the extras for having a diesel, but since the machine will be kept in a garage, I don't think I'll have to plug it in. But I'll still have the extra head ache of adding stuff to keep from gelling.

The overall cost of operation is far from my biggest concern. I estimate about 100 hrs a year of service is about what I'll get out of it to cut the grass and clean up some snow. A couple of dollars in fuel cost either way each year isn't at the top of my list.

I'm mostly interested in the durabilty and reliability of the overall machine. That's the reason I'm going to get a new machine. I want to know that all the right PM is being done and the machine is cared for. I don't want to get into someone else's problem. I'm planning on keeping this machine till the wheels fall off, so resale value isn't high on my list either.

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm considering moving up to the 2230 size machine. I have 3 acres, but about 1 I want to put in alfalfa to let the deer munch on. Really I want to cut down on my mowing time, and only have to cut that area only once a month or so. I'm looking at the bigger tractor to get a live rear PTO and a rough cut or sicle bar mower for that area. I could also get a 60" belly mower to cut the rest of the yard in a hurry. Maybe even a FEL to do some dirt work and haul mulch. But along those lines if the 2000 or 2100 would mow grass about 12-14" high with the deck all the way up I would be more than happy to pass on the FEL and just get the 2*00.

I can see the case both ways for and against the diesel. Thanks a million for all the input, but in the end I guess they both have goods and bads. I may just end up with the gas machine because I'm familar with working on gas engines, but have never owned a diesel. In the end, the gas + weights + blade + 48" deck = the $$ of the diesel + 54" deck. Putting 20 years on a machine and 2000 hrs should be plenty, but the option to go twice as long for only $800 more is also appealing. I won't be able to replace/rebuild the machine for only $800, so wanting to hold on to it for a long time makes me lean towards the diesel.

I'm still confused. Are there any other differences between the diesel and the gas besides the engine and deck size on this machine? Why does the diesel weigh so much more?

Thanks again!

[Michael]

Thanks guys, now I'm really confused again. :)

Since I do live in a cold climate, I have to consider the extras for having a diesel, but since the machine will be kept in a garage, I don't think I'll have to plug it in. But I'll still have the extra head ache of adding stuff to keep from gelling.

In colder parts of the country such as where you live diesel fuel is changed in the winter to provide anti-gelling additives, but if you use left over diesel you will have to add anti-gelling additives.

The overall cost of operation is far from my biggest concern. I estimate about 100 hrs a year of service is about what I'll get out of it to cut the grass and clean up some snow. A couple of dollars in fuel cost either way each year isn't at the top of my list.

I'm mostly interested in the durabilty and reliability of the overall machine. That's the reason I'm going to get a new machine. I want to know that all the right PM is being done and the machine is cared for. I don't want to get into someone else's problem. I'm planning on keeping this machine till the wheels fall off, so resale value isn't high on my list either.

Still for durablitity diesel is far superior to a gas engine, at useage of 100 hours a year a gas engine is only expected in perfect conditions to last maybe 5 years top before a rebuild.

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm considering moving up to the 2230 size machine. I have 3 acres, but about 1 I want to put in alfalfa to let the deer munch on. Really I want to cut down on my mowing time, and only have to cut that area only once a month or so. I'm looking at the bigger tractor to get a live rear PTO and a rough cut or sicle bar mower for that area. I could also get a 60" belly mower to cut the rest of the yard in a hurry. Maybe even a FEL to do some dirt work and haul mulch. But along those lines if the 2000 or 2100 would mow grass about 12-14" high with the deck all the way up I would be more than happy to pass on the FEL and just get the 2*00.

I did something different then you because of a limited budget and got a JD L-series to mow my yard and a 25 year old Kubota L185 (18 hP diesel 2 cylinder tractor with a FEL rototiller and rotary mower for $4800.00) for my pasture I use the Kubota, My one advantage is I can repair anything I break on the Kubota or the Deere. By moving up to maybe a small BX series Kubota it has a 3 point and can be equiped with a FEL, My neighbor has one and he always putting around doing stuff with his, he also when he needs to mow his field borrows my rotary mower to mow his field.

I can see the case both ways for and against the diesel. Thanks a million for all the input, but in the end I guess they both have goods and bads. I may just end up with the gas machine because I'm familar with working on gas engines, but have never owned a diesel. In the end, the gas + weights + blade + 48" deck = the $$ of the diesel + 54" deck. Putting 20 years on a machine and 2000 hrs should be plenty, but the option to go twice as long for only $800 more is also appealing. I won't be able to replace/rebuild the machine for only $800, so wanting to hold on to it for a long time makes me lean towards the diesel.

Personally I agree with the logic of what you are saying and the Kubotas have a well earned reputation for long live.

I'm still confused. Are there any other differences between the diesel and the gas besides the engine and deck size on this machine? Why does the diesel weigh so much more?

Diesel engines are built heavier because they are compression ignition engines, because they are compression ignition engines they have have to be built much stronger and heavier to take the high compression required to ignite the fuel air mixture, thats the reason they do not require spark plugs.

Thanks again!

Your welcome.....:trink40:

[old_nodaker]

Back to your question about the 425 - depending on how old it is, pre '98 or '99 is would have the "plastic cam gear" issue. If it hasn't been replaced yet, it probably soon will need to be. JD doesn't recommend a FEL for the all wheel steer, although I think you can get an aftermarket one. I use a blade on my 445, it will push a lot of snow, but chains are a necessity. Like you said, you're really comparing apples to oranges.

[JDFANATIC]

Incidently, adding an additive such as PowerService can't get any simpler: you just pour a little into the tractor when you fill it, or just add it to your cans when you fill them. Also, as commented, if your fuel supply is current, it will already have additives for the colder season.

BTW, if you are even thinking of loader work, and don't care to go the used route Michael suggested, then I would take a close look at the BX tractors. You don't want to fall into the same trap so many of us have fallen into: get the right sized tractor up front.

Happy New Year!

JDFANATIC

[MowHoward2210]

I had a strong opinion on this topic, but after reading all the posts I'm not as sure when it is pertaining to the original question! :bonk:

If you are moving up to the sub-compact utility category with the 2230, then I think you will have all the machine you need. The only drawback is the $$ factor. But equipped with a 60" deck, it will cut down your mowing time a good bit.

If you go the GR series route, the glide steer steering will be a big plus, especially if you have a lot of trees to mow around. The only negative I can see of the gas model is the 48" cut. The extra cost of the Diesel model with the 54" cut might pay for itself a little quicker than projected when your factor in the time savings of a 54" deck to a 48". Also the diesel most likely will go through the tall grass faster. The added weight of the Diesel up front might help the snow plowing a bit. With 4-wheel drive, you can probably avoid chains. I would definitely stick with 4WD for your situations.

I would say the GR Diesel would be your best bet with it's 54" deck and Diesel torque. However, the 2230 will allow you to get your work done in the shortest amount of time, but then there is the $$ factor.

[Bohica]

I bought a gas GR (GR2000) and it is a great tractor. However I soon regretted not getting the 2230 that I eventually bought. Carefully evaluate a couple of factors...

1. Besides mowing...what will the tractor be used for?
2. Do you forsee ever having a need for a FEL or 3PH implements?
3. Would the 60" deck on the 2230 be an advantage or a hinderance on your particular property?

Slam

[Private_Pyle]

This tractor will mainly be used for mowing. I want a blade for the front for the sulshy snows we sometimes get here in eastern PA, and to occansionly push around some dirt or something.

A FEL would be a nice to have, but since I don't have horses or anything to keep after, I don't really have a NEED for it. Sure I could use to do odd jobs around, but it's not something I need, or really have to the room to store when not in use. I'm considering getting a used FEL/mower like the 2230 to use till I get the worst of my land scaping in over the next two or three years.

The 60" deck would be great, but how much time will really save cutting 2.5-3 acres compared to a 54" deck?

The big thing I think I could use would be the rear PTO and three point hitch. I could use a rough cut mower so I could let the rear of the property get very tall before mowing.

I would really like the gas engine with the 54" deck, but I think I'll end up with the GR2100 just for the 54" deck. I think this machine will do everything I can ask in the way of snow removal with the 4 wheel drive and the glide steer will cut down on the mowing time. The larger turning radius of the 2230 or even the BX1500 or 1830 is a disadvantage for mowing, but offer the 3 pt hitch and the FEL option.

I'm heading off to another Kubota dealer in the area this afternoon to get more opinions and prices. That's also the best way to look over any used equipment that may be around.

Happy New Year and please keep all the great advice coming!

[Mickey]

Sounds like you still have some thinking to do. If there is a FEL or a pto/3pt in your future, I'd move up in size to to occomodate those needs. That in itself may dictate the typ of engine.

Micheal, Where did that 500 hr engine life statement come from?

I still have and use my 70 Bolens that had an engine swap 25 yrs ago to a B&S twin. The biggest maintainance item has been to clean the points a time or two. When I got my JD 318 I called Onan and asked about engine life in this application, response, 2000 hrs. When the JD was replaced the hr meter was pushing 2000 hrs. Engine still had not been rebuilt.

500 hrs sounds like something on a cheap lawnmower/lt.

[Private_Pyle]

After a visit to another Kubota dealer this afternoon, I think I'm settled in on the GR2100. The only real fault I find with it is that the optional blade is a manual unit rather than operated by the hydrolics that operate the deck.

I don't think I'm going to need that PTO driven mower after all. The FEL is just a nice to have, but it will eat up more room in the garage than I'm willing to give it. I'm still plenty young enough to work a shovel, so the 2100 and a small trailer will allow me to move all the stone/mulch I'll need to.

I have my mind set on a 54" deck, so unless a visit to the Cub Cadet dealer in the near future changes my mind, I think the tight turning, 4 wheel drive, and comfortable 2100 fits the bill.

The dealer's stock actually help me make up my mind more than anything. He had about 12 2100's in stock vs only 2 2000. That spoke volumes over which units they thought were better, and after much debate over what can go wrong in a gas vs a diesel, the diesel is the way to go.

Thanks again for all the advice, and I'll post pictures when after the new year when I get the unit home.

[Keweenaw4310]

I live in the extreme cold and had no problem with my 455 Diesel JD once I learned that additives kept it from gelling at 20 below. It would start that cold if I asked it to.

I personally like the smell and sould of the diesel so I'd be sold on it even if it didn't have more torque and cost less to run and last twice as many hours and be easier to resell.

[Private_Pyle]

You know, I've asked several dealers now why the used stock is so very low. They always say, "I just get that many trades anymore." People just talk about getting rid of used machines and they sell by word of mouth. The dealer today only had two used machines, and they were brought in as resale units, not actual trades.

[Keweenaw4310]

I tried all summer to find a decent used John Deere in my area and couldn't do it. Nobody wanted to part with them. And like you said Private Pyle, when one changes hands it happens so quick and by word of mouth that you most likely will not be in the loop to grab it.

[MowHoward2210]

I think you made a great choice, Private Pyle. You'll appreciate the torque of the fuel sipping Diesel on the slopes as well the 4WD and Glide Steer.

[exNCite]

After a visit to another Kubota dealer this afternoon, I think I'm settled in on the GR2100. The only real fault I find with it is that the optional blade is a manual unit rather than operated by the hydrolics that operate the deck.

I don't think I'm going to need that PTO driven mower after all. The FEL is just a nice to have, but it will eat up more room in the garage than I'm willing to give it. I'm still plenty young enough to work a shovel, so the 2100 and a small trailer will allow me to move all the stone/mulch I'll need to.

I have my mind set on a 54" deck, so unless a visit to the Cub Cadet dealer in the near future changes my mind, I think the tight turning, 4 wheel drive, and comfortable 2100 fits the bill.

The dealer's stock actually help me make up my mind more than anything. He had about 12 2100's in stock vs only 2 2000. That spoke volumes over which units they thought were better, and after much debate over what can go wrong in a gas vs a diesel, the diesel is the way to go.

Thanks again for all the advice, and I'll post pictures when after the new year when I get the unit home.

Pete,
I'm in Central NJ. I have a Simplicity Legacy XL. 4WD, 27HP diesel, 60" deck, FEL. The 4WD and power steering is awesome. I love it. Keep it in the garage with the bucket and wt box on. Fits nicely with freezers and all the crap I have. Welcome to test drive if you'd like. Also might like to check out the Simplicity forum here. Some interesting perspectives and pics. I'm not knocking any other brand, just trying to confuse you more. ROF

Actually cut less grass than you do. 60" maybe an overkill, but what an animal it is. I realy wanted the FEL and haven't stopped playing with it since last summer. Am clearing the woods, thinning out some trees, moving mulch, putting in new yard with t/l's of topsoil, plowing snow. You get the picture. It will probably add 4-5 years to my lifespan. My guess is you'll kick yourself for NOT getting one.

Whatever you decide, be happy with it. Best of luck.