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: Ford 4500


Mercury
09-13-2010, 07:31 PM
Hi all... Sorry about two posts... but One was about a wain roy backhoe (sorry but i never heard of this) and this one is a bout a ford 4500.

I love FORDS I am a ford fan through and through tractors cars and trucks.

So here we go... I talked to a guy selling this one, ford 4500 industrial tractor with 4 spd forward and 4 speed reverse tranny, all working ok.

No leaks and he said everything is working good.

Questions for you guys:

1. If the brakes need to be replaced is that a simple drum brake job and can you get parts?
2. What should I be paying for this thing if it is in good shape - no leaks etc..

here is the listing

thanks, I am looking at it tomorrow night!


http://newjersey.craigslist.org/grd/1925517910.html


Kenny

Nouveau Redneck
09-14-2010, 11:34 AM
The brakes are wet brakes inside the axle housing. The rear differential and axle housing is also the hydraulic reservoir. You would need to drain all of the fluid and then pull the wheels off and then remove the outer housings (trumpets) for each side's axle from the center housing to get to the brakes. The brakes are actually a multi-pack disc assembly, similar to a motorcycle clutch.

Most parts are still available. Check out the New Holland On-Line parts catalog here (https://webparts.pvassociates.net/cnh/webparts/main.php). Type in 4500 as the model and click Search, and then click the plus sign next to the first selection "4500 3 cylinder Industrial Tractor" to expand the list, and then click on brakes, and then finally on "Brakes & Brake Controls".

Mercury
09-14-2010, 11:51 AM
Thanks bud!

I do not know how the brakes are on it now but its one thing i will check.

I look at the 4500 tonight and the wain roy in the AM... this reminds me i need to call somebody and ask about a ford 4000 AG tractor.

Whats better the industrial or AG? when it comes to digging?

The 4500 has a 3 cyl diesel with a strong engine, i think that will be great for what I have to do.

Thanks for any advice, I am very new. I was very close to buying a AG ford 4000 tractor with back hoe but the guy was supposed to fix a blown hose and he has had a month to do it, time for me to move on to the next one, the 4500 is local i cant wait to take a look... plus it is diesel and i love diesel.

kenny

Mercury
09-14-2010, 02:40 PM
Wanted to ask one more quick one, how much would be reasonable for a machine like this?

Starts and runs well and strong...

thanks in advance... I am new at all this and just looking for a solid backhoe to work in my yard

kenny

Nouveau Redneck
09-14-2010, 03:41 PM
A 4500 would probably be better for digging than a 4000 AG with a backhoe added on, especially if it's the older 4 cylinder 4000, which were smaller, lighter and less hp. The 3 cylinder 4000 AG tractor was comparable to the 4500, but the backhoe addition was still an add-on rather than being designed into it from the ground up like the 4500 Industrial was.

I've been seeing that same one on the Philadelphia craigslist for the last several weeks, and I think that if it's running as good as he claims and there are no leaks anywhere, then $4500.00 is a good deal.

Mercury
09-14-2010, 03:50 PM
A 4500 would probably be better for digging than a 4000 AG with a backhoe added on, especially if it's the older 4 cylinder 4000, which were smaller, lighter and less hp. The 3 cylinder 4000 AG tractor was comparable to the 4500, but the backhoe addition was still an add-on rather than being designed into it from the ground up like the 4500 Industrial was.

I've been seeing that same one on the Philadelphia craigslist for the last several weeks, and I think that if it's running as good as he claims and there are no leaks anywhere, then $4500.00 is a good deal.

Thanks redneck.... I looked at the ford 4000 AG tractor... and it was the 4 cyl gas, engine fired right up and felt strong but then it blew a hose on the stabs, I have been waiting a month for him to fix it but no such luck. he wanted 4400 for the ford 4000.

Now this one the ford 4500 has not been listed all that long (a few weeks at most) and the guy is local which is good (less towing costs).

I go to look at it tonight and if I like it I think ill just buy it. Parts can still be had for the 4500's at reasonable prices.

My other back hoe I was supposed to look at tomorrow is a wain roy 4 cyl diesel backhoe. But there is nowhere I can find parts for that thing, sure it is listed for 3K but what if I blow something, im just totally stuck - I think I am pushing for the ford 4500.

Thanks for the info, this is all very exciting.

Does the 4500 industrial have a 3 point hitch if the backhoe is removed? Just wondering, I may want to use it at some point later in life.

kenny

Mercury
09-14-2010, 05:08 PM
By the way I just tried that parts place you told me about and it needs me to log in there... Are you a dealer or something?

Kenny

Ecnerwal
09-14-2010, 07:08 PM
4500 may or may not have 3-point hardware - if it was a hoe rig from the factory, it probably won't. You could change the rear end to get one, but that's a job and a half. A second tractor might well be easier.

4500 .vs. 4000AG - no contest, the 4500 is the better digger. 3 cyl .vs 4 cyl - 3 cyl better, IMHO. Certainly newer.

4500 has a 27GPM nose-mount pump, and a 20 gallon reservoir (5 in the nose with the filter, 15 or so in the loader frame). The loader (740) is an industrial loader that will break out 6000 lbs and lift 3000 to full height, with a front axle that will support that. An ag front axle is weak by comparison, and ag loaders are wimpy and slow by comparison. No ag add-on pump is comparable to the 4500 hydraulic package pump, as far as I recall. I'm assuming it's got a loader, they nearly all do since the loader frame is on there from the factory.

As for price, condition is everything at this age. Anywhere from $1500 to $6000, "depending". Hoses are easy, seals are moderate, scored cylinders and rams are expensive, as hydraulic repairs go. Back tires are very expensive. If somebody loved it enough to use all 20+ grease fittings on a regular basis, it's worth a lot more than if they used 3-4 of the easy-to-get to ones once in a great while and left the other 16 or so un-touched. If you can't pump grease in them all, they are not happy and have not been used - the the one in the bottom of the main hoe pivot pin (fun to get to, or even find depending on impacted dirt) or the two at the center pivot of the front axle for "not likely to have got used much if not caring for it." Look for slop (forward/back mostly - open it up and put the bucket edge in the ground, then pull/push and see what moves) at the main pivot of the hoe. Look for the power steering working only in one direction (end of the ram may be snapped off, so it only works when pushing.) Look for missing bushings on the king-pins of the front wheels.

I've done a lot of work with mine, and parts can be found, but as with any old equipment, getting it apart to get new parts on can easily be 90% of the battle when things are rusted tight and 40 years old, not to mention heavy enough to kill you (in many cases) and awkward to handle once you do get them loose.

Mercury
09-14-2010, 09:11 PM
4500 may or may not have 3-point hardware - if it was a hoe rig from the factory, it probably won't. You could change the rear end to get one, but that's a job and a half. A second tractor might well be easier.

4500 .vs. 4000AG - no contest, the 4500 is the better digger. 3 cyl .vs 4 cyl - 3 cyl better, IMHO. Certainly newer.

4500 has a 27GPM nose-mount pump, and a 20 gallon reservoir (5 in the nose with the filter, 15 or so in the loader frame). The loader (740) is an industrial loader that will break out 6000 lbs and lift 3000 to full height, with a front axle that will support that. An ag front axle is weak by comparison, and ag loaders are wimpy and slow by comparison. No ag add-on pump is comparable to the 4500 hydraulic package pump, as far as I recall. I'm assuming it's got a loader, they nearly all do since the loader frame is on there from the factory.

As for price, condition is everything at this age. Anywhere from $1500 to $6000, "depending". Hoses are easy, seals are moderate, scored cylinders and rams are expensive, as hydraulic repairs go. Back tires are very expensive. If somebody loved it enough to use all 20+ grease fittings on a regular basis, it's worth a lot more than if they used 3-4 of the easy-to-get to ones once in a great while and left the other 16 or so un-touched. If you can't pump grease in them all, they are not happy and have not been used - the the one in the bottom of the main hoe pivot pin (fun to get to, or even find depending on impacted dirt) or the two at the center pivot of the front axle for "not likely to have got used much if not caring for it." Look for slop (forward/back mostly - open it up and put the bucket edge in the ground, then pull/push and see what moves) at the main pivot of the hoe. Look for the power steering working only in one direction (end of the ram may be snapped off, so it only works when pushing.) Look for missing bushings on the king-pins of the front wheels.

I've done a lot of work with mine, and parts can be found, but as with any old equipment, getting it apart to get new parts on can easily be 90% of the battle when things are rusted tight and 40 years old, not to mention heavy enough to kill you (in many cases) and awkward to handle once you do get them loose.

Hi there...

Well I did not get to do "everything" you said.... but the machine did fire up after the pre heaters were ran twice she smoked a little when getting fired up but ran nicely when she was up and running. She sounds VERY strong.

Everything was greased well and maintained nicely. No slop in any pins, on loader or backhoe.

Transmission worked nice it was a 4 speed forward and reverse with the quick throw lever (i do not know the name of this tranny)

The hour meter showed 2500 or so and i believe it.

The two rear tires have some patches / plugs in them and I will search for those tires for cheap (look for a deal) are they split rim, how do you mount them?

The two front tires were shot and a tube is popping out on one of them.

There are no leaks on the machine except for one seep on one hose connection for the stick on the backhoe.

I got some numbers here.... i will try to look them up too...

on tranny? 357e-4033a

on engine

C94n7006D

Any info would be great along with size of front tires i could not read the size... cause i need those bad - wonder if i can mount those myself with my harbor frieght machine

Thanks all Kenny

Ecnerwal
09-14-2010, 09:48 PM
Transmisson is called "4 speed power reversing"

Numbers you posted are just casting numbers - look up "oaktree tractor page" and then on there look for "ford thousand series" to find the best page for where to look for numbers and what they mean. If the hood is original the numbers should be on an aluminum plate under there (over the battery), otherwise the flat spot behind/above the starter (hard to see with the loader frame on a 4500 - you may need a flashlight, a mirror and a wire brush) is where the primary numbers are.

Front tires were typically 7.50x16 - if you don't have a thing for bias ply, slap some 235x85 R16 truck radials on there (with tubes) and you are good for digging/loader duty, unless you have to have the "look" of tri-rib ag tires. Load range E radial tires are a good bit above the original "6-ply" bias rating....

As far as I recall the back tires are normal rim, and you will break the bead with something heavy and then use tire irons to change them - or you will wimp out and call a tractor tire service, especially if they are loaded with calcium chloride.

I take it you've got a diesel, since you mentioned a preheater. Unless you are DEAD CERTAIN the previous owner has done this VERY RECENTLY, pop on down to the New Holland dealer and get an oil filter, a transmission filter, a hydraulic package filter, an air filter and a fuel filter. Change them all, change the engine oil, and give serious consideration to changing the hydraulic fluid unless it looks pristine (but there is a _lot_ of it.) That way you know when they were changed, and you know you are starting out with them all clean, and can keep records from there.

Everything on the tractor but the engine uses Ford (pardon me, New Holland) 134D or a Universal Tractor Fluid that meets the 134D spec. Generic will be cheaper and works just as well as far as my opinion goes - other opinions may differ. The transmission and rear end are separate, and both use the stuff.

Depending on the year, your power steering may be separate or may be tied into the hydraulic package.

Don't miss greasing the spline drive to the hydraulic pump in the nose.

Mercury
09-14-2010, 09:53 PM
Transmisson is called "4 speed power reversing"

Numbers you posted are just casting numbers - look up "oaktree tractor page" and then on there look for "ford thousand series" to find the best page for where to look for numbers and what they mean. If the hood is original the numbers should be on an aluminum plate under there (over the battery), otherwise the flat spot behind/above the starter (hard to see with the loader frame on a 4500 - you may need a flashlight, a mirror and a wire brush) is where the primary numbers are.

Front tires were typically 7.50x16 - if you don't have a thing for bias ply, slap some 235x85 R16 truck radials on there (with tubes) and you are good for digging/loader duty, unless you have to have the "look" of tri-rib ag tires. Load range E radial tires are a good bit above the original "6-ply" bias rating....

As far as I recall the back tires are normal rim, and you will break the bead with something heavy and then use tire irons to change them - or you will wimp out and call a tractor tire service, especially if they are loaded with calcium chloride.

Its funny I could not give away my stock 235/85 R16 tiers, now i can use um! oh well.... ill find some

Gotta trailer it home next, im looking that up now cause i bought it

kenny

Ecnerwal
09-14-2010, 10:08 PM
You'll need a heck of a trailer.

Hiring an equipment mover may be the better/cheaper (in the long run) option. Depending exactly how it's equipped (size of hoe, are tires loaded or not), it's a 7-9000 lb beasty with a hoe on.

Mercury
09-14-2010, 10:15 PM
Im looking at equipment movers now.... I can rent a 20 ft deck over for 100 bux but i do not think its wise to make this transport, even though it is only 5 - 10 miles

Ecnerwal
09-14-2010, 10:19 PM
Experience and the right equipment are worth paying for - I don't know about your local market price, as they vary widely, but if you don't have to go too far away to find a mover (transit time to/from the job) you might actually come out paying less and having someone that's fully equipped for the job to do it. If equipment movers come up too expensive or far away, look around for a local contractor that hauls a backhoe around your town and give them a call.

Mercury
09-14-2010, 10:21 PM
Oh I agree... theres a slight hill from there to here and I do not think it is wise for me to attempt on my own, the most I ever trailered was 3500 LBS, this is quite different I am sure.

Im still looking :)

im excited needless to say

kenny

Kirk-NJ
09-15-2010, 06:38 AM
Ken,
If you don't find someone local, I have a guy in belvidere, NJ who might move it. He has a dually with a gooseneck trailer. He moves his 11,000 lb ford tractor around all the time. Email me and I'll give you his # and you can work out details.

Kirk

Mercury
09-19-2010, 11:22 PM
Thanks Kirk, its all moved and doing fine... the 3 cyl diesel is an animal

Its got a little oil gauge on it that reads well over 80 psi (pinned) when running, I may want to put a different gauge.

is this right to you?

Kenny

Nouveau Redneck
09-20-2010, 11:43 AM
By the way I just tried that parts place you told me about and it needs me to log in there... Are you a dealer or something?

No, I'm not a dealer. Sorry, I went too far into the site before I copied the link. The link I sent you too had basically expired because it was from my earlier session and it apparently tracks sessions.

Just go to the main New Holland North America page here (http://agriculture.newholland.com/us/en/Pages/homepage.aspx) and point the mouse at "Parts & Service" and then click on "Search for parts". That will take you to the parts catalog search page with a new session.

Mercury
09-20-2010, 12:58 PM
No, I'm not a dealer. Sorry, I went too far into the site before I copied the link. The link I sent you too had basically expired because it was from my earlier session and it apparently tracks sessions.

Just go to the main New Holland North America page here (http://agriculture.newholland.com/us/en/Pages/homepage.aspx) and point the mouse at "Parts & Service" and then click on "Search for parts". That will take you to the parts catalog search page with a new session.

thanks, Ill be saving that site!

Kenny

Mercury
09-20-2010, 01:12 PM
Ecnerwal - thanks for the info... ill look at getting a load of UTF (5 gallons) for tyranny and hydraulics and rear end...

As for the engine on the Ford 4500 3 cyl diesel... what oil do you use? Ford calls out low ash 10W but these specs are from 1968, is 15W40 more like it these days?

just checking - thanks kenny

Nouveau Redneck
09-21-2010, 08:15 AM
If it calls for 10W then I would use a modern 10W30 or 10W40 diesel rated motor oil. A 15W40 might not be thin enough in colder temperatures.

Mercury
07-15-2013, 10:53 AM
Hello All, I appreciate all that you have done for me (through messages and online posts.)

I have used the 4500 for the last 2.5 years and it has been great. I put an alternator on it, new tires (front and rear), a few hoses that blew, wirewheeled and primed the whole thing.

My latest problem has been the backhoe boom lift cylender. It started leaking like crazy out of the packing nut.

I tried to do research on how to replace the seals myself, has anybody ever done this?

Are there replacement cylenders that one can purchase?

I dropped off the cylender at a hydrolic place and they will give me an estimate on new seals installed. I don't think I have the tools to do it, not to mention the cylender weighs about 200lbs.

just a guestimate they said it would be around 500 bucks to replace the seals - this is a big drop in the bucket.

any ideas? Advice?

Kenny

davo727
07-15-2013, 06:17 PM
To me that sounds like highway robbery, but in the northeast maybe that is normal.

Mercury
07-15-2013, 10:22 PM
i called another place and got the same rough guesstimate.... we will see wednesday when i get a final estimate.

kenny

Nouveau Redneck
07-15-2013, 10:25 PM
Well, in New Jersey you gotta pay the "Union" rate, even if its not as union shop. Otherwise the shop might have an "unfortunate" accident.

Mercury
07-15-2013, 10:42 PM
I am pretty sure i dont have the tools to do it myself, dont even know where to get the right seals. I called a ford dealer today and asked for the cylender number, they gave me an email with the loader lift cylenders even though I said backhoe boom lift cylender.

Ecnerwal
07-15-2013, 11:10 PM
755 (15 foot) hoe, right?

D7NN-8577-B

I suspect if shopping around you'll do better to just look for one of similar size. It's 4.5" diameter (piston, I assume) and you'll have to measure the length yourself, the parts list is mute.

The rebuild kit is 309947

Parts numbers should lead somewhere, but may not be most current or currently available - from my paper parts list. My impression is that a good hydrualics shop should be able to provide the parts for less than New Holland. Doesn't mean you can find one that will.

You can put the cylinder back on the hoe to hold one end and fabricate a wrench for the other, if you really want to try DIY. Should save about 80% of the cost of having it done, but it will cost you time and effort.

On the third hand, when I repaired my bucket cylinder, the rebuild kit set me back $63 or so (11 years ago) but the repair cost me north of $400, because someone before me put parts in bass-ackwards and destroyed the $300+ piston. At that, all I really fixed was the external leakage - the internal leaks are annoying (I probably reduced them some with a cylinder hone), but beyond my present ability to repair, and I haven't coughed up the cash for a replacement cylinder or a better-equipped repair.

Mercury
07-16-2013, 09:54 AM
755 (15 foot) hoe, right?

D7NN-8577-B

I suspect if shopping around you'll do better to just look for one of similar size. It's 4.5" diameter (piston, I assume) and you'll have to measure the length yourself, the parts list is mute.

The rebuild kit is 309947

Parts numbers should lead somewhere, but may not be most current or currently available - from my paper parts list. My impression is that a good hydrualics shop should be able to provide the parts for less than New Holland. Doesn't mean you can find one that will.

You can put the cylinder back on the hoe to hold one end and fabricate a wrench for the other, if you really want to try DIY. Should save about 80% of the cost of having it done, but it will cost you time and effort.

On the third hand, when I repaired my bucket cylinder, the rebuild kit set me back $63 or so (11 years ago) but the repair cost me north of $400, because someone before me put parts in bass-ackwards and destroyed the $300+ piston. At that, all I really fixed was the external leakage - the internal leaks are annoying (I probably reduced them some with a cylinder hone), but beyond my present ability to repair, and I haven't coughed up the cash for a replacement cylinder or a better-equipped repair.

thanks so much!

I think this time around I will let it be what it will be as long as it is not too expensive. I will see what the place comes back with as far as price.

I will also ask them if there is a replacement cylinder that would be a good option. I figure if they get 100$ just to quote (have to take it apart to see what is going on) and then $400 to fix, and a new cyl is $300 it is still worth it just to go with new cyl.

I notice a few places have replacements - surplus center, northern tool etc...

Just that the ends seem different on the one i have compared to the pictures I have been seeing.

I will have to see what the place tells me as far as a quote goes, hopefully they just rough estimated high.

Kenny

Mercury
07-16-2013, 01:02 PM
Welp I got the estimate.... $540 for all new seals (he said both ends), he said the rod and cyl is in good shape, no honing necessary.

But the packing was leaking, but the boom was 'falling' so that is likely the other seals. With all of these seals replaced the boom wont fall and it will be good as new!

they give a 1 year warrentee as well.

Screw it, I did not want to spend this much but it is what it is.

thank you all for the info. Next time I will take my time and maybe try to do an after market cylender.

kenny

Ecnerwal
07-16-2013, 07:36 PM
Finding an aftermarket cylinder that actually is the right size and fitments (or can be made so) is non-trivial. Now, if you find an excavator boneyard (junkyard) you might get lucky. But the common stuff ala northern tool is usually way too short, or too fat (outside) , or both...

Mercury
07-16-2013, 11:33 PM
Well then, maybe if it happens on a different cyl i will just attempt myself, I can always bring it somewhere if I can't get it.

This time, I will let them fix it, but man $$$ oh well.

kenny