Should I attempt a restore, Horse circa 1979 tiller [Archive] - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information

: Should I attempt a restore, Horse circa 1979 tiller


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HDmstng
03-26-2010, 11:02 PM
Trying to figure out the model/year, I'm thinking 1979/1980 based on a parts/attachments/kits price list included in a box of parts for the Ole Horse.

As you can see it is in quite disrepair, no engine and a bunch of rust. This was my fathers tiller (which I used often) and was left with my aunt. The engine died and they decided to replace instead of repair and it was left outside. I do have with it a small amount of original parts, plus some of the original documentation.

A parts-attachments-kits list with "Prices Effective January 1, 1980.
A how to tune up your troy-bilt's 6 HP Tecumseh-Lauson Engine.
Belt adjustment for your two speed tiller.
A four page fold out Master repair and maintenance kit part list.
A how to replace wheel shaft oil seal.
5 easy tips for replacing troybilt oil seals.
Troy bilt external hardware kit diagram (12/77)

Here are some of the overview pictures. Definitely will need to be broken down, sanded/sand blasted, and repainted. Not to mention a new motor, belt, motor mounts, etc...

HDmstng
03-26-2010, 11:06 PM
Here are pictures of all the numbers I could find. Would need some help locating the model number so I can figure out what parts I need (and costs) to get the engine mounted and running.


The first picture is harder to read, it says TH-1001-1 (or -Y) a "circled "B"" and The second picture has cast on it" Garden Way TH-1010 H" really can't make out the rest. Will have to check again.
And the third picture is simply "68824"

Any idea of the model and serial number out of those?

HDmstng
03-26-2010, 11:20 PM
Here are a few pictures of the documentation I have.

HDmstng
03-26-2010, 11:22 PM
And a couple of pics of the parts I have.

nra1ifer
03-27-2010, 02:02 AM
Looks like a Horse I, built in September, 1973.

I think that if that tiller had been MY dad's, I'd be inclined to want to restore it.

I'm in the same predicament: I hope to get my grandfather's Farmall Super A. It's still in decent shape, needs more cosmetic fixes more than anything. I used that tractor when I was a kid, and would LOVE to get it back to like-new condition.

bontai Joe
03-27-2010, 05:05 AM
Your model is "Horse" or "Horse 1" and yes it's worth fixing. Do you plan on restoring it to original factory condition? If yes, you will need to find a 6 HP Tecumseh, but if you just want to use it, Troy-Bilt used a lot of different motors on these and there are several available that will fit. Check out the repower section of www.smallenginewarehouse.com. MTD is the current manufacturer and they are pretty good on parts, even for an "oldtimer" like this one.

HDmstng
03-27-2010, 08:17 AM
JOe, it definitely has the sentimental value and I had started using the tiller as soon as I was old/big enough to use it. Was about 7 or 8 when my dad first bought it. Definitely understand where you are coming from, heck I'm trying to get our old neighbor to sell back our old John Deere 140 H3 (~1977) that we sold when we moved. Still in great condition, with the hydro drive/hydro blade attachment etc...

NRAlifer, not sure how easy it will be to find a 6HP Tech. engine to make it as original, but the engine had been replaced around 1985.

My parents always had a big garden growing up, and one summer, 1985ish, the old Tech. kept acting up. My dad purchased a new Kohler replacement engine for it (K141 was the 6 hp version, found the manual for the replacement engine in the box). He believed the original Tec. was on it's last legs and was going to die soon. Instead I saw the new engine in the garage and went ahead with a friend to switch it out, we had plans on using the old engine in a go kart. :00000061: Needless to say he wasn't too thrilled, but the kohler ran great and started up easily!

Long story short, some initial research says I need about $150 in new parts (pulley's, belts, reverse disc) plus an engine. Think I'm going to go for it!

DJ in WV
03-27-2010, 08:30 AM
Is the restoration question rhetorical?

I agree, I would definitely restore the tiller. It looks solid and looks like a good candidate.

The last photo in your second post is the serial number.

HDmstng
03-27-2010, 03:44 PM
Love your quote DJ, and yes I will be restoring the tiller. Have a few other projects going right now that I need to finish up first, but I'll post updates here as I go along.

mla2ofus
03-27-2010, 06:50 PM
HD, a little advice for something to do now before you start on it. turn it on it's side and start putting penetrating oil on the inside and outside of the wheel hubs. I just got my horse not long ago and had to drill two bolt holes in each wheel so I could get my puller on them and still had to heat the hubs w/ oxy/acet. torch to get them off. When I replaced the seals I applied liberal amounts of anti seize to the axles and hubs after cleaning them up good w/ emery cloth and wheel cyl hone. Mine will always be parked out of the weather but I'll still remove the wheels every couple of years to reapply the anti seize.
I found 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" PVC pipe w/ one end cut off square makes an excellent seal driver. A chop saw or miter saw will make the square cut. IIRC the 1 1/2" is for the tine seals and the 1 1/4" is for the wheel seals.
Mike

don r
03-28-2010, 12:53 PM
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ikb05g.jpg mine looked like yours but with a junk engine runs good now

HDmstng
03-28-2010, 03:05 PM
Thanks for the advice guys and great job on your tiller Don! I was headed out later today and had already planned to start using the penetrating oil.

I've been looking at the parts diagram on TroyBilt's (MTD's) site as well as the small engine warehouse site on making sure I have the right model#.

On Troybilts site, this is the description of the parts diagram I'm using.
HORSE I 6HP ROTO TILLER (S/N 1001-639999) Is that the correct one?

And is mine considered a 2 speed or 4 speed? I believe 2 speed since it has a "Fast and Slow" setting, but is it considered 4 speed since there can be Fast Forward/Reverse and Slow Forward/Reverse?

Also, I can't remember if I had one belt or two belts either.

And from Troybilts parts list, I'll need the following, plus various bolts.:

PUL:MACH:HORSE
619-04124 $75.58

KIT-ADJUST BLOCK/REV DISC
GW-1919 $51.98

BELT:V:GW 208
GW-9245 $14.76

They also have listings for the bolts/washers etc...but they wanted $2 for a single lock washer, I think I can do better elsewhere.

How about decals, are they still sold?

ford8
03-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Many of us TB tiller "addicts" started with one like yours. I did not see a copy of your Owners Manual listed. Priority one, if you don't have one, get one. And DO NOT get the photocopy version of one. You cannot see the pictures well, and a picture is worth a thousand words. They frequently come up on e-bay. Try and
watch out for parts on e-bay though, they tend to go top dollar, and can REALLY add up.
Also, over on Yahoo, at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/troybilttillerclub/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=2

There is the Troy Bilt Tiller Club, dedicated to just the TB tiller. Much info is there.
if this Forum blocks the about URL, contact me by private mail at:
ford888(at)verizon.net (replace the (at) with the usual e-mail symbol), and I'll send it to you.
Regards,
Ford

mla2ofus
03-28-2010, 09:33 PM
HD, I don't know how the 2 belt ones were set up. If the two pulleys on the trans shaft are different sizes, then I'm going to say it's a one belt model. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Mike

bontai Joe
03-28-2010, 11:13 PM
HD, I don't know how the 2 belt ones were set up. If the two pulleys on the trans shaft are different sizes, then I'm going to say it's a one belt model. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Mike

You are correct. The real old timers used 2 "matched" belts, the later models used 1 belt that you could switch from one set of pulleys to the other for different speeds. Careful measuring of the width of the pulley grooves will determine which you have, but if it's much older than say 1977, then I'm pretty sure you have a 2 belt drive. Mine is a 1980 and is a one belt drive (4 speed)

mla2ofus
03-28-2010, 11:26 PM
Thanks, Joe. I'm still curious to know if the post about the "belts slipping" is a 4 spd that someone has put two matched belts on. I'm sure that would create a lot of "belts slipping"!!!
Mike

nra1ifer
03-29-2010, 07:58 AM
Based on the serial number, I'd say it is a two-speed, two-belt tiller, like mine.

HDmstng
04-01-2010, 06:39 PM
Well my Horse is back home. Good thing too, my Aunt had someone coming next week to remove a bunch of stuff from her yard, and it would have been gone!

Sprayed a bunch of penetrating oil on all bolts and moving parts. Most things are moving free but the motor mount wouldn't move using the lever. There is a bunch of rust on the slides so will need to break that off.

Saw a great deal at Harbor freight for a 6.5 HP motor, only $129 and I have a 20% off coupon. Will need to double check, but if it can be fitted on, a motor has been found.

I'll be purchasing the pulleys and belts and what not this weekend online, if all goes well by next Sunday I could be tilling! I could spin the tines while in neutral and the pulleys moved quite well, there was a bit of play in the pulley though, they would slide about 1/8".

Did stop by a shop that does chemical stripping of rust and powder coating, they said it would be under $200 to strip and powder coat. They had a great red called Red Barron that should match well. Am a bit worried about the transmission though, may just have to spray paint.


In summary:
Harbor Freight engine and new pulleys are going to be coming in soon.
Any watch outs for the powder coating, especially around the transmission?
Any idea on where to get new decals?

DJ in WV
04-01-2010, 10:02 PM
I think that is a great price on a strip and powder.

That's tempting to do for one of my Gravelys.

ford8
04-02-2010, 04:30 AM
My Harbor Freight "Greyhound" bolted right up , no problem. I didn't bother with the throttle cable, just set the engine throttle, and go till. Runs GREAT! Also, I am running with just a tad overfill on the oil, and the engine low oil cutoff switch hasn't cutoff on my deepest till setting. By the way, I spent the extra few bucks and got the additional 2 year warrantee, so when (and if) I go to sell it, the new owner will have what's left of a 3 year warrantee. More power than the old Tecumsea ever had.
I giot my tine hood decals from: http://www.eastcoastartisans.com/
Giood folks.

Regards,
Ford
P.S. The story of my rebuild, including a pix of the decals is at:
http://www.weehoose8.com/troy.html

Grateful11
04-02-2010, 07:42 AM
Being that it was your Dad's I be inclined to restore. Found a gas powered
Reel mower here on the farm, in the dry, recently I'm thinking about restoring.

WVdeerehunter
04-02-2010, 08:15 AM
My Harbor Freight "Greyhound" bolted right up , no problem. I didn't bother with the throttle cable, just set the engine throttle, and go till. Runs GREAT! Also, I am running with just a tad overfill on the oil, and the engine low oil cutoff switch hasn't cutoff on my deepest till setting. By the way, I spent the extra few bucks and got the additional 2 year warrantee, so when (and if) I go to sell it, the new owner will have what's left of a 3 year warrantee. More power than the old Tecumsea ever had.
I giot my tine hood decals from: http://www.eastcoastartisans.com/
Giood folks.

Regards,
Ford
P.S. The story of my rebuild, including a pix of the decals is at:
http://www.weehoose8.com/troy.html


:ditto: On What F8 said. I did the same thing to mine. If you follow
the yellow wire off the engine (low oil shutdown) you'll find it runs into
a black plastic cover. Snap open that cover and there is a connector.
Disconnect. Tuck everything back into the cover and snap back together.
You've now eliminated low oil shutdown.

And again on what F8 said, the difference in power is amazing.
Best $99.00 I ever spent.

BTW, if anybody needs any parts off an HH60 Techumseh with electric
start, let me know. Or the whole thing. Engine in operating condition.
Starter works good.

Later
Steve

HDmstng
04-06-2010, 09:50 PM
Have an original manual (with coffee stain) and a manual on CD coming that I got off ebay. Still need the engine pulley/reverse disc, but have a good lead on that. Then today...

The engine mount shafts are frozen, and for the past week or so been spraying them down with penetrating oil. Took a 3 lb hammer and a 5/8" brass pin to try and free them. Unfortunately broke both upper through holes of the engine mount. :Disgus: Still have one of the shafts stuck, didn't want to chance cracking the transmission case. I'm drilling it out now, luckily the metal is pretty soft.

Will see if they can be welded, or maybe a bracket can be fabricated. If not, look for a replacement. I'm starting to wonder if all the years outside has taken its toll.

Here are a few pics of the damage.

Firefyter-Emt
04-06-2010, 11:18 PM
OH... that casting just hurts just looking at it!

What I would do is two-fold...
A) clamp the broken pieces to the housing. Now drill a hole two sizes smaller than a 1/4" for a tap. Drill these through the broken ear and into the main body. Enlarge the broken ear to 1/4" and bevel the hole for a recessed bolt head. Tap 1/4 - 20 threads in the main body. Now you can clamp it tight and bolt them back on.
B) Now use a grinder to bevel at the crack and find a shop that can heat & braze the crack on the outside. Grind down the repair and you should be good to go. I would not trust the braze repair by itself without the bolt.

Keep going on the repair, these were awesome tillers and like mine, it was your dad's. That alone is enough to put all the effort into it. I restored mine 8hp "Big Red" horse (1981 vintage) about 2 years ago. Mine was bought new in 1981 by my dad and he kept every piece of paper-work that came with it. Not only that, but Troy-Bilt sent him all new decals a few years after he bought it and he never put them on. This was good news as I had the original decals to put on it when I was done! I am SERIOUSLY kicking myself for not having them scanned and re-produced. I could of sold so many sets on e-bay it's not funny....

Here is a link to mine...
http://www.yankeetoys.org/lee/troy-bilt.htm

http://www.yankeetoys.org/lee/TB-49.jpg

PS... to entice you to check it out.... Mine was not much better than yours.
http://www.yankeetoys.org/lee/TB-1.jpg

I am running the original motor with a replacement carb and I converted it to the modern magneto. I also have the original push bar and a 36" Troy-Bilt dozer blade to boot.


PPS... I would not powder-coat this unless you plan to fully tear it down, transmission and all. This will require all new seals and serious work. I would see what they would charge to sand-blast the entire assy once you have torn it down a ways though. To powder-coat it, you need to bake it at 400 degrees and the seals will be shot. Drain & flush the transmission, install new seals at the wheels and the rear shifter shaft and spray paint it. The powder-coat will hold up the best, but you will need to strip everything out of the transmission.

mla2ofus
04-07-2010, 10:16 AM
HD, none of us likes hindsight, but I just noticed the pins on mine have 3/8" std holes in the top of them. I didn't have problems getting mine out. Maybe for the future anyone else having this problem could attach a slidehammer and apply some heat to everything to get them out. No help in your case but hopefully it will help someone else in the future.
As for your broken slides, I'd take them to a welding shop, have them vee out the cracks, preheat, weld them w/ nickel rod, postheat and slow cool.Get an estimate first and then compare against a replacement if it can be found. I think they'd be as good as new.JMHO.
Mike

HDmstng
04-08-2010, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the advice Firefyter and Mla! I was finally able to get the shafts out, the one that cracked first was a bear! Ended up drilling down about 2.5 to 3 inches with a 1/2 bit but it still wouldn't budge. Drilled some more with a 5/8 dia drill and was able to weaken the sidewalls enough that they would give and allow the drill to pass through. Drilled it a bit sideways though, as the side wall was partially shaved through!

I know a guy that has a design and fabrication shop, he's going to look at it. The price for the weld is right, only some donuts. Will know in a day or two.

mla2ofus
04-08-2010, 07:51 PM
That's why I love having my oxy/acet torch. Usually if something don't want to move, if you get some localized heat on whatever is on the outside and a puller or slidehammer it will eventually move. Even if it means replacing some rubber or plastic parts. I thought I was gonna melt the beads on my horse tires before I got the wheels off the axles.
Mike

bontai Joe
04-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Ouch!!!! Hammers and cast iron never work well together. I hope you can get it fixed ok.

ford8
04-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Another possibility is e-bay, which right now has:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330422070077&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2Fi.html%3F_nkw %3D330422070077%26_in_kw%3D1%26_ex_kw%3D%26_sacat% 3DSee-All-Categories%26_okw%3D330422070077%26_oexkw%3D%26_ud lo%3D%26_udhi%3D%26_ftrt%3D901%26_ftrv%3D1%26_sabd lo%3D%26_sabdhi%3D%26_samilow%3D%26_samihi%3D%26_s adis%3D200%26_fpos%3DZip%2Bcode%26_fsct%3D%26LH_SA LE_CURRENCY%3D0%26_sop%3D12%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50 %26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

These frequently come up there as lots of guys are stripping them, and selling the parts
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Ford

mla2ofus
04-09-2010, 06:58 PM
Another possibility is e-bay, which right now has:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330422070077&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2Fi.html%3F_nkw %3D330422070077%26_in_kw%3D1%26_ex_kw%3D%26_sacat% 3DSee-All-Categories%26_okw%3D330422070077%26_oexkw%3D%26_ud lo%3D%26_udhi%3D%26_ftrt%3D901%26_ftrv%3D1%26_sabd lo%3D%26_sabdhi%3D%26_samilow%3D%26_samihi%3D%26_s adis%3D200%26_fpos%3DZip%2Bcode%26_fsct%3D%26LH_SA LE_CURRENCY%3D0%26_sop%3D12%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50 %26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

These frequently come up there as lots of guys are stripping them, and selling the parts
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Ford

Now that's the route I'd take. Can't beat it for $10 and shipping. I don't think the bid could go in orbit.
Mike

motobike
04-09-2010, 07:08 PM
It is going to take some work, time and money; but it would be a nice addition to any collection.

ford8
04-09-2010, 07:15 PM
Warning: probably won't go that cheap. The last 2 minutes can go nuts. I just decide what my "last and best"(as they say in the real estate rackets) is, wait 'till the last 20 seconds, then fire it in. If I get beaten out, so be it. No harm done, there will be another one along shortly.
In any event, it will probably be cheaper and look better (for resale purposes) to go with a unbroken casting. And all this, just because somebody was just didn't give a darn about proper maintenance. A squirt of oil now and then, and these headaches would not happen. Buy it, beat it, and junk it. A sad comentary on the "American way". Cubans are still driving '50 Chevvies, fixing them and drive some more.
Regards,
Ford

HDmstng
04-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Thanks for the lead on the motor mount! Found one on eBay (no shafts though) and got it for $72 with shipping.

May have found the original engine pulley/reverse disc too! Found a used one on eBay though, so may end up with a spare. A neighbor tried to fix the engine years ago but couldn't, and he had all the parts in his garage/workshop. This is including the replacement Kholer engine, although the engine is probably shot.

Also found a repair kit for the roller assembly (1051A) that goes on the Forward/reverse level in the box of spare parts my dad had.

Things are coming along nicely though. Repair totals so far...
$72 used motor mount.
$40 new engine shafts.
$120 for new Harbor freight engine.
$25 new belts (although maybe in the box of found parts)
$25 used engine pulley/reverse disc.

Total $280 worse case scenario, depends on the parts I can get my hands on.

ford8
04-10-2010, 02:41 PM
Hope you used the "on line" $20. off coupon at HF on the engine. I also spent
the "extra" $20. for the extended 2 year warrantee, giving me a 3 year total warrantee. Good PR for a possible resale.
Regards,
Ford

HDmstng
04-12-2010, 07:04 AM
No such luck with the original parts find. The enginhad a blown piston rod and was completely disassembled. The engine pulley was in there, but it had a crack in the pulley wall and is shot. Got outbid on an eBay auction for one on Saturday, so no such luck. For now, not much can be done.

Might try this, trying to get some additional details on it, such as what the back off the pulley looks like. Might be able to use some spacers or maybe even some tooling to get the reverse disc and for it to line up correctly. The OD maybe off a bit, 3" vs. 3.25" for the original, but should be fine.

http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/13-713.html?id=zGv5gQzG

http://www.mfgsupply.com/img/rotary/13-708.jpg

If anyone has an engine pulley for the two speed horse they would like to sell, let me know, I'm in the market.