New operating system

[freebird]

Ok, I saw it on the news last night that Microsoft requires the immediate download of 5 new patches. That was the last straw. I need help in picking out a new OS for the computers we have now. They're kinda old....Pentium II 350 MHz just to let you know what they are. I am curious as to what is invloved - will I lose data? How much should I spend etc. Thanks in advance.

[MowHoward2210]

You're kind of limited to Windows and some forms of Linux on your older X86 machines. Linux can work well, but it can be quite a process to make everything such as your peripherals work correctly. But if you like those kinds of challenges, then it might work for you. The only other alternatives are to upgrade your machine(s) either by modifying or buying new, and run XP with SP2, or swithching to Mac OS which would require new Apple hardware. I am alot more qualified on the latter if you have any ?'s about that.


Bear in mind there's always going to be updates and patches no matter what OS you are using.

[CatDaddy]

The patches aren't that big a deal. (It only took ~45 seconds to d/l them yesterday.) They close 'exploits' discovered as hackers burrow deeper & deeper into the OS trying to find new weaknesses. Your PC will only barely run XP & that if you have 512+MB of RAM. (You'll probably have to strip out a number of "features" so that your system will run smoothly. Win2K is about as far as you'll be able to effectively go with an OS upgrade (Maybe only up to WinME - which IMO isn't that much of an improvement on Win98SE).

I hate to say it, but to move beyond that you'll pretty much have to suck it up & replace your machines.

-=A=-

[freebird]

thanks for the info fellas.....I do see an upgrade in the future, mabye xmas....and i'll have to get 2 of them - one for the better half.

[Ingersoll444]

CD,

I had ME on my laptop [755 I think it was] and I never realy felt it was anybetter then 98, but maybe that was me.



It's kinda tough. Every softwere upgrade makes the older computers more and more obsoleate. My POS PII 266 is very unstable running the newer programs.

[spook291]

Freebird:

I am assuming that you are running Windows 98 and hopefully 98SE.. your 350mhz computers will not support XP.

As long as you check for updates to Windows98SE on a regular basis, then updates should be no problem. You can also monitor as 98SE can check for updates automatically. Then, when you see the update notice appear on your monitor, just follow the prompts.

I have been building computers since the early 90's back when DOS 6 and 6.2 and 6.22 were king and Windows meant Windows 3.1 or 3.11 for Workstations. As far as I am concerned Gates and the boys have just piled layer upon layer of Visual Basic code on top of each other creating a humongeous OS that has way too many back doors. With that said --

I have in my home a network of machines running Win 3.11 to XP SP2. Win98SE is still being run on my two main computers downstairs (a K6-2/500mhz and an Athalon 1.4ghz) along with the 3.11 (486 DX2/50mhz with 32 meg of ram). My wife, 3 daughters and my son all run Windows XP SP2 on machines from 550mhz to 2400+ AMD processors. The only Intel processor is on my eldest daughters machine which is also a 2.4ghz chip. I also have a AMD 266mhz computer set up as a router running Smoothwall (Linux based) connected to my hub and modem.

I just installed 2 critical updates on my 98SE machine (this one) last night.

Now to dispell some popular misconceptions with some common sense thoughts from someone who has been building for a long time. I do not do it as a business, but it has proved helpful for purchasing upgrades for my own computers and in buying tractors and tractor parts.... :congrats: :trink39:

1. The media will always try to magnify the smallest news byte into as big a story as they can. 5 new updates are no big deal. I have seen as many as 17 critical updates over a very short period of time (literally an hour or two). This just proves that the MS team is actually doing what they are supposed to do and that is to repair/rewrite the code necessary to close whatever backdoors/entry points that are in the OS. DON'T WORRY about it...

2. You do not need to upgrade your systems if you are satisfied with them and they do WHAT they are intended to do or WHAT you want them to do.

3. If you want to upgrade, then you need to decide what it is you want the new computer to do. Do you want it to be a gaming computer or a computer to browse the net and fulfill your tractor addiction or is it going to be a work computer or maybe a bit of everything. You need to think about that.

This will decide the following:

1. Processor/mainboard and ram requirements
2. Video requirements - gaming capability, video capture etc...
3. Hard drive (speed and capacity)
4. CD and/or DVD Rom burning capacity or just read only
5. USB peripherals such as mouse, printers, scanners, cameras etc....
6. keyboard requirements (regular, enhanced or fully web functional)
7. monitor
8. not to forget -- do you want a modem or a LAN socket or both? If you have dial-up you need the modem to connect to the internet, make sure it is a 56 KBps HARDWARE modem and not a WinModem which is software. ISP Support Techs really dislike software modems (my son is a support tech). If you intend to have more than one computer but wish to have all connect to the internet, then you will need LAN sockets or cards and a router/hub. You need to decide if it will be wireless or cabled as this will indicate which cards you need to buy.

These are all things that will affect the cost of the hardware alone.

Also, you must decide if you want a name brand which you end up paying for the name, or do you want a custom built OEM computer that can be customized to your individual needs. This is the route that I go. It is more cost effective and I get higher quality parts for less than a compromise with a name brand.

4. Then comes software ---

a.) Your choices are essentially all Windows based products. For the home user you have the following:

1. Window XP Home (don't bother wasting your money -- stripped down version of XP and most builders really dislike Home) and for about $10.00 more you can get XP Pro

2. Windows XP Pro. Make sure you get the disc with SP 2 included. Especially if you do not have broad band. Downloading SP 2 on dial-up is enough to tax anyones patience. This is the most stable of the OS's available.

3. Keep your existing Win98SE software -- yeah, it is okay, but MS will discontinue support in 2006. So that really isn't an option. (This pains me as I have 17 personal copies of Win9x which I guess are going to go to waste). I make sure that I am completely legal with my OS's.

4. Windows 2K or any version of what was known as Windows NT. Primarily workstation software, it does have it's uses. I have a machine on the way with 2k installed and I will leave it there as it is essentially the basis for XP and will run all the software that I use. I do not game, so it isn't an issue.

5. Then you have to decide on Anti-Virus and Firewall software. I usually recommend Norton SystemWorks with the firewall. Also have been experimenting with System Mechanic 5. Norton is the caddilac of anti-virus. SM5 is right behind it. I will not use anything else. In fact rule of thumb is - no Norton, no leave the shop - PERIOD!

6. Then you have to decide on what else you will need. Your Office 2000 and following will all operate on XP. In fact even all of your 9x software will probably operate quite nicely on XP provided you enable 9x emulation in the properties tab in each program.

Cost:

Well, that depends on what you want. You can go cheap and buy a machine for $499.95 -- some manufacturers are advertising it all the time. But and this old axiom still applies - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !! and never forget that.

So, you can pay usually $499.95 to $2,000.00 depending on what you want.

The average price of a new computer that I build without a monitor and which includes the following :

mainboard, 2400+ processor, 512mb RDDRAM, 80/120 mb ATA 100 7200 rpm Hard drive, floppy, CD burner, DVD burner, Radeon video card, LAN, Sound, speakers, optical mouse, enhanced Web keyboard, new case and Win XP Pro SP2

goes for about $1100.00 CDN.

Monitors vary in price. regular 17" from $150.00 to $400.00. 17" LCD flat screens from $349.00 to $750.00 depending on brand.

I hope this has helped a bit and has not caused a case of information overload.


Keep us posted.

[Greg]

freebird,

More details, please.

What brand/model machines?

How much RAM do you have on each machine, and what kind including bus speed, type mounting, how many more open slots/max RAM your machine will recognize.

How big are your HDs and how much is full/avbl?

What monitors do you have, detailed.

What application software do you have loaded, which ones do you really use?

Have you downloaded and run all the available Anti-XXX software, updated them and their dictionaries recently?

This might help us help you until X-Mas....ROF ROF :fing32:

Greg

[freebird]

Thanks spook and Greg. One computer is the PII and the other is AMD. Both have 64meg of ram and are using windows2000 pro. All in all I see new toys for xmas.

[CatDaddy]

Hooray! - I mean darn. :(

Now you have to get a new computer. :eek:
ROF ROF ROF

[spook291]

Freebird:

I think you are right - new toys for Xmas. One good thing is that you have time to think on what I posted and what the others have said. You need to decide what you want.

However, I do see this though. If you get new toys for Xmas, I see one of those machines in your shop/garage so that you can access all the online tractor data that you need.

That is what I am doing. One of my older computers will be given shop duty. Most of my data though will be on hard drives and CD-Roms.

I am available should you wish more info on what is available in regards to new equipment.

Would also suggest you check out the new AMD 64 Bit architecture CPU's...

that is what is coming down the pipe and I would think Xmas would be a good time to move over to the new architecture.

[MowHoward2210]

I believe in getting the most computer you can afford so you can handle what's coming down the pipe, but I'm really not sure what advantages a 64 bit chip will have once the OS (XP) catches up to it unless you are doing really high end tasks.

[CatDaddy]

With an Athlon64 you will be set up for Longhorn (64 bit OS) when it comes out. If you go that route, make sure you get a Socket 939 & NOT a Socket 754. That's a dead end product line. Then again S939 might be dead when dual-cores come out anyway, but it'll be quite a while before the OS will take advantage of dual-cores. (~2 years +/-) :D

[MowHoward2210]

Whoops. Sorry guys, I was thinking in terms of dual core 64 bit processors that have been in the news lately. Couldn't see a real benefit at the consumer level at this time, although I agree with you guys that it's good to be ready for what's coming (Longhorn).

You can get a 64 bit version of XP as of late, correct? And I'm assuming there is not much of a performance difference with 32 bit apps when run on the Athlon 64. XP (Pro?) is multi processor aware, I think, so I'm assuming it will see the dual core architecture as multi processor?

[CatDaddy]

There is a 64bit Longhorn beta available if you feel like being a guinea pig, but XP isn't going to go 64.

MPs & dual-cores don't "work" exactly the same way. MPs have completely separate socket circuit traces and share once they come together at the Northbridge (IIRC), whereas dual-cores share a socket (I don't know how the pin-out is managed on them). I've read some tests that show dual-cores won't do squat for any single app (like games - at least until they're coded to take advantage of the feature - same holds true for a 64bit OS). But, for users like me with multiple apps open, you get a performance bump because tasks are assigned to separate processors. That means you can encode & burn DVDs, while listening to your music library, running PhotoShop, browsing the web & doing something else - all smoothly AND quickly! MP's do this now, but at the expense of 2 CPUs, 2 HSFs, and needing twice as much matching RAM. Oh, and a beefy PSU too.

If I can find the last 'reputable' review I read, I'll post it for you.

I don't plan to build a new PC until PCI-E/DDR2/dual-cores/64bit OS/SATA (II?) burners all sort themselves out and the prices stabilize below "bleeding edge" levels.

-=A=-

[MowHoward2210]

I guess that's the other thing I was thinking about --the bleeding edge price level. But if you can afford it, then why not? :eck21:

Thanks for the info. :fing32:

[Greg]

But, for users like me with multiple apps open....That means you can encode & burn DVDs, while listening to your music library, running PhotoShop, browsing the web & doing something else - all smoothly AND quickly!
-=A=-

Cat...when did you get your Mac?

ROF ROF

Greg

[MowHoward2210]

Cat...when did you get your Mac?

ROF ROF

Greg

ROF ROF I was thinking along the same lines, but he did say smoothly and quickly, both which don't happen all of the time with those aforementioned conditions on my measly little G4. That, and I was trying to be "good"! :D

[Greg]

Yeah, Mow, but compare Apples to Apples (gotta love that phrase) with the top of the line PC available and a DP G5 running the current, now or after 4/29 heh heh, OS and see how they compare under the Cat's test.....

:aetsch: does seem appropriate....

Greg

ROF

[CatDaddy]

Aye, smoothly AND quickly - there's the rub. If I close either photoshop or stop encoding, things perk right up. I think PS is a real resource hog. (JMO tho'!) Maybe if I went to 2 Gig of RAM...? But @ ~$300 a Gig for top quality high-speed, low-latency RAM... Meh!

I have been thinking about a SATA RAID array for my video, but it's a bunch of $$ for a "maybe" improvement.

[MowHoward2210]

Yeah, Mow, but compare Apples to Apples (gotta love that phrase) with the top of the line PC available and a DP G5 running the current, now or after 4/29 heh heh, OS and see how they compare under the Cat's test.....

:aetsch: does seem appropriate....

Greg

ROF

Well that remains to be seen. Needless to say one will probably outperform the other on some tasks, and vice versa. Their out of my league anyway. Kind of like driving a 450hp car to work everyday. Nice to know the power is there, but your not going to use it very often.

[Greg]

Yeah, Mow, but with one you can drive to work in class and style reliably everyday, day after day, and with the other, you need to have a mechanic on standby... ROF

OK, back to the couch...

Greg

[MowHoward2210]

Aye, smoothly AND quickly - there's the rub. If I close either photoshop or stop encoding, things perk right up. I think PS is a real resource hog. (JMO tho'!) Maybe if I went to 2 Gig of RAM...? But @ ~$300 a Gig for top quality high-speed, low-latency RAM... Meh!

I have been thinking about a SATA RAID array for my video, but it's a bunch of $$ for a "maybe" improvement.

Sometimes I'm sure I need another 512mb of ram. I've concluded that PS is a hog, too.

[MowHoward2210]

OK, back to the couch...

Greg

Yes, you better rest before you punch (tire) yourself out! ROF

[MowHoward2210]

Alienware has incorporated dual-core Intel Processors into their systems. I've started another thread about that here. (http://mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?p=8519#post8519)