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Faux (live) PTO

4K views 25 replies 7 participants last post by  Ariens93GT20 
#1 ·
I have a Kubota B2320 that doesn't have a live PTO. Unfortunately, that's what is needed when using a round baler. My baler is an imported unit that makes a 3' X 3' round bale. Up until now, I've been getting around the problem by turning off the hay row into a clear area to let the baler tie the bale and eject then I turn back onto the hay to continue. But, dragging the baler across the hay row while it has already started wrapping produces a messy looking bale and sometimes chokes the baler which stalls the tractor. Lying under the baler on a hot July day pulling out the excess hay is not my idea of fun. Setting the baler to the low density setting helps somewhat but I'd rather use the mid-density setting. I can't use high density at all because the maximum HP at the PTO is 18 and the baler requires 20 but that's alright, mid-density is fine. I've thought about ways to cause the pick-up tines to stop when the baler sounds the horn. Something like an electric clutch on the drive for the tines but its complicated. And, I'm not sure an electric clutch would work with a chain drive system. So, since I know that the wheel with the least traction gets the power while the other stands still (like on most any differential) I decided to raise the right rear wheel off the ground to duplicate what a live PTO does; the PTO spins while the tractor stands still. It works just fine. I unloaded the FEL and use two of the quick disconnect ports and the control lever to operate the new cylinder. Push forward, the tractor gently raises and stops, pull back and it gently lowers and moves forward. I mounted a 1" heavy wall pipe to the bottom of the cylinder and attached the front end to the FEL mount under the tractor to keep the cylinder from rotating. That's part of a small shovel I cut down and welded to the pipe to act as a skid. I've tried it with and without the baler and it works fine. Now I can quit wasting time, stop when the horn sounds, tie and eject the bale then continue on.
 

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#2 ·
You have a modern tractor that doesn't have a live PTO?

Did you try pushing the clutch pedal halfway down to disconnect the transmission and leave the PTO engaged? Most gear drive tractors have a two-stage clutch specifically for this purpose.
 
#3 ·
Thank you TUDOR. My compact Kubota B2320 doesn't have a live PTO. Probably because they figured no one would be round baling with it. I believe even the current B2320's do not have it for the same reason. Yes, I know what a two stage clutch is. Not available on my tractor. Mine is a single stage. I've been dealing with the lack of a live PTO for several seasons and I think this work-around will be better than all the maneuvering around I've been doing. Just thought it might be of interest to someone else. Do you know of another implement that requires a live PTO.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Do you know of another implement that requires a live PTO.
Snow blower. With a deep snow fall, it can be easy to overfeed requiring a brief pause in travel for the auger and impeller to catch up to the volume, and engine revs to pick back up. You really don't want to lose impeller momentum with a PTO that goes dead when travel stops.

Tillers and mowers also do not take kindly to being stopped because forward travel ceases. Sometimes hydraulic pumps and water pumps are driven by the rear PTO, and are often used while the tractor is stationary. Likewise, there are emergency generators that are driven by tractor PTOs.

Your hydraulic wheel lift works fine for the specific situation that you're dealing with. It's unsafe for long term use such as with a water pump for irrigation or a stationary generator when the power grid goes down for several hours or days.

I was under the impression that live PTOs have been standard on all tractors since at least the '60s. My MF GC2310 TLB has live PTOs at both the rear (540 rpm) and the middle (2000 rpm) locations. It's at least 2 years older than your B2320 and is pretty much industry standard.

I'd be investigating WHY your PTO isn't live when every other tractor's is. Check your manual. On my GC, there are 3 levers for the PTOs, one to enable the system, and one each to engage the individual PTOs. Maybe you're missing a step? :dunno:
 
#5 ·
Good information TUDOR. I had a PTO tiller but never had any issues using it without live PTO. I want to stop spraying product with my spray rig while standing still. Perhaps there are other situations. I know it's troubling that the "B" lacks live PTO. Not sure about your assumption that all other tractors have it. Some folks just assume they have It!

Consider this: first there is an engine, then a bell housing where the clutch lives, then a single 20" long drive shaft to the gear box/differential. That one drive shaft must stop spinning when the tractor stops. There is no other device sending power to the gear box. Believe me, no live PTO on the "B".

I am relatively new to all this tractor stuff. But, I spent most of my life repairing cars, trucks, lawnmowers and planes. I've replaced many clutches. I really didn't intend to bale hay here but soon figured out that finding someone to do it for me was next to impossible. I have only 8 acres of local grasses. Not enough for custom balers to mess with.
 
#7 ·
More accurate to say that the power to the gearbox is interrupted when I step on the clutch. Of course the drives shaft spins when the clutch is engaged as when stopped, engine running in neutral. And, the PTO still spins except when I disengage the clutch.
 
#8 ·
If your tractor is a gear drive it does not have live PTO from the factory if its a hydro it does have live PTO.
 
#10 ·
You're welcome I still found it odd they don't have it from the factory because I think even my 1957 Farmall has live pto. and I know our old Kioti CUT did as well.
 
#11 ·
I'm sorry your tractor doesn't have a live PTO, but it seems you found an acceptable way to use the implement with your tractor. We can either sit around wishing we had something that works a different way, or we can change the way we work to use what we have. Nice job!
 
#12 · (Edited)
From the manual.

BStationary PTO To park the tractor and use the PTO system (for chipper or pump, for example), start the PTO system in the following steps.

1. Apply the parking brakes and place blocks at the tires.

2. Make sure the shift levers are at NEUTRAL, and start the engine.

3. Set the PTO gear shift lever to "Rear PTO 1st" position.

4. Set the engine speed to provide recommended rear PTO speed.

5. Dismount the seat and tilt up quickly (engine will stop if there is a delay in tilting up the seat).
It's possible that all that's needed to keep the PTO running is to step on the brake pedal, or at most, set the parking brake for the necessary amount of time. Since I don't have any gear drive tractor's, that's the best that I can offer.

Hydro tractors use the clutch for the PTO. For anything bigger than a smaller GT, the hydro is always connected to the engine full time.
 
#13 ·
It sounds like there is probably a brake switch, as well as a seat switch. Based on that info I think you would have to complete the brake circuit and break the seat circuit. I guess it's a double safety to make sure you are stopped and off the tractor.
 
#14 ·
I think you are reading from a hydro tractor manual because it doesn't mention depressing the clutch to engage the PTO and it refers to "Rear PTO 1st" position. Tractor has only one position for rear PTO. Adding the clutch part will allow the PTO to run while in neutral.

None of this helps because while baling, at 2500 rpm (PTO speed) I'd have to drop the engine speed to idle, kick it out of gear then up speed to wrap and eject, down again, into gear then back up to drive on. This would bring the baler to a stop many times during the day. Talk about loosing momentum. Talk about wear and tear on tractor and operator. It does not have a live or "independent" PTO.
 
#16 · (Edited)
No, it is referencing how to use the PTO in a stationary situation, such as irrigation, where the operator is NOT going to be sitting in the seat. It even specifies that there is a limited amount of time for the operator to get off the tractor and tilt the seat to defeat the seat switch before the engine shuts down. (Item 5. in that list.)

In your case, you are still in the seat and need only to push in the clutch, step on the brake, and probably shift to neutral with the clutch released to keep the PTO running. (Item 2. in the list.) It only takes a second to kick it out of gear, and only about 2 seconds to put it back into gear and get going again. There is no need to throttle down at any point in the procedure. Tractors are designed and built to engage both the PTO and the transmission at WOT. If they weren't, they'd be useless for getting heavy loads moving, whether it was a PTO load or a pulling load. Maximum torque is only available at high rpm.

it refers to "Rear PTO 1st" position. Tractor has only one position for rear PTO
Check the manual again. That refers to the 2 positions available for the lever, Position 1 for the 540 rpm and Position 2 for the 900 rpm PTO speeds. See the accompanying diagram.

Follow the directions in the manual and I believe that you will have your live PTO, it just won't be as quite as independent as it is with a hydro transmission, but close enough with a bit of practice.
 
#18 · (Edited)
It does not feel like "the friendliest tractor forum" or the "best place for information" when a person who reads a manual tries to argue with someone who owns and operates the machine.
Perhaps, but the objective is to keep the OP and his equipment safe from harm. Sometimes that does take argument from a friendly person. If that person wasn't friendly, he wouldn't care if the owner did himself a disservice and would let him continue doing the job the hard way without comment.

Until the OP comes back and states that he has actually tried the procedure in the manual and it doesn't work, I don't feel that it is arguing. It's merely trying to educate a recalcitrant student who has come up with a workable alternative to substitute for the proper procedure for his specific problem.

While his alternative solution is more or less workable for that purpose, it is not a safe or acceptable solution for that or any other operating circumstance, while the procedure in the manual is safe, easy, and much less expensive for all operating circumstances, and it will take less time to implement than his alternative.

Sorry, but that's what friends do in my book. :care: What would they do in yours? :confused:

As a point of information, I took the time to look up the owner's manual for the OP's tractor and only read that part of the manual pertaining to the operation of the rear PTO. I have zero experience on compact utility tractors and felt a need to learn enough to offer assistance. The best place for information is the manual. Failing that, there are many members on MTF willing to look up the information to answer questions if they don't have the necessary experience or the required information locked into their memories. And we all have a concern for safety.
 
#19 ·
Steve,

You obviously have not been around MTF long enough to realize and/or appreciate the amount of time and effort Bob puts into helping members with their wide range of problems and concerns.

Bob's knowledge and experience has helped countless members over the years.

It is members like Bob that make this such a great forum, where members can post a question and know they will get great guidance and support from the other members.
 
#20 ·
I'll second that Bob is a amazing member who has taught me quite a few things while I may have disagreed a couple times I usually come around to agreeing with his view on the subject. And Bob is defiantly one of the most friendly members on here. He makes me seem like a complete jerk.
 
#21 ·
TUDOR,

I appreciate your expert advice and also the comments of others reading the mail. Thank you all.

But, what you are describing from the manual is how to use the PTO while stationary, operator not in the seat. As you stated, I am still in the seat. I won't touch the clutch pedal with the engine running at 2500 RPM due to the wearing effect that would have on the throw-out bearing. Remember, I'd be doing that 100 times or more during one harvest. I don't want to have to split the tractor. If I did disengage the clutch, even in 2 seconds, the bale would stop rotating. Then engaging the clutch at 2500 RPM would torque the bale back to rotation with a real jolt. Assuming I left the engine running at 2500 RPM and I had shifted to neutral, when the bale ejected I wouldn't want to shift back into gear with the RPM that high. The B2320 has the "Crash Box" or "Constant Mesh" transmission and I'd be picking up gear teeth for a week! And, I don't want to be doing "burn-outs" in the field.

Thank you for your advice but I think my crazy idea will work better than your crazy idea. Anybody else have a crazy idea?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Well then, I would suggest that you question the dealer if you are dissatisfied with the procedure in the manual. While the procedure in the manual is for stationary operation, it will also work in the field by ignoring those steps that aren't required with the operator in the seat and his foot on the brake.

When I was a working stiff, I drove 5 miles across town to my job. With a 4-speed manual gear box, that entailed upwards of 20 uses of the clutch throw-out bearing in 12-13 minutes, and the same to get home at the end of the shift, 5 times a week and 50 weeks a year for a conservative total of 10,000 times a year, plus the normal, everyday, running around. I only recall changing one throw-out bearing in 4 years.

I will point out that the engine is turning at 2500 rpm, but the PTO, and therefore the bailer, is only turning at 540 rpm. If the bailer winds down that much in 2 seconds to cause concern for shock load when power is reapplied, it doesn't have a lot of rotating mass and the shock load will be minimal. If it does have a lot of rotating mass, it won't slow down that quickly, and again, the shock load of bringing it back to speed will be minimal.

Unlike pulling a set of bottom ploughs, there isn't a whole lot of axle torque to load the transmission gears involved with towing a bailer.

I will also point out that starting and stopping 100 times during a harvest isn't much compared to starting and stopping 300 times, or more, during 8 hours of snow removal, which I do up to 16 times in the month of December alone. Tractors with snow blowers operate at WOT full time, even when shifting from forward to reverse. The transmissions are designed and built to handle that.

What gear are you working in that is going to result in a "burn-out"? There's a huge difference between popping the clutch at 2500 rpm in a car that will be doing 25 mph when the tires finally grab the road, and doing the same thing in a tractor that has a top speed in the work gear of maybe 5 mph. I would venture to say that your B2320 doesn't weigh as much as my 20 hp MF1655 GT fully dressed, and it doesn't do burn-outs at 3600 engine rpm getting to full speed in LO. It just does a short and quick acceleration run of a couple of feet to reach 4.5 mph.
 
#23 ·
TUDOR

I've been fertilizing the property this day.

I'd like to respond to your comments then leave the post open for others that may have something to say about the original topic, which was the cylinder. If that's OK with you.

First, the procedure in the manual is fine. It simply doesn't apply to the live PTO issue. For instance, I read on another board where someone with an old tractor found that by loading something heavy in the loader he was able to lift one rear wheel creating what he figured was a live PTO. May have worked but not what I want.

One tractor throw-out bearing in a life time is more than I want.

The preceding page in the manual warns to reduce engine speed before engaging the PTO to prevent "Shock Loads".

My baler has a good bit of internal drag caused by several drive chains and 16 rollers. No belts.

I'm going about 3-4 mph while baling. When I let the tractor down it gently resumes speed.

Thank you again for all your assistance. I know I have a better idea of what live PTO means. By the way, I visited a friend who has a Kubota L3200 which is much more of a machine than mine and couldn't see any reason to believe his PTO was live. His had a shuttle shift tranny where the reverse function occurs much further rearward in the driveline. Clutch had a short travel with no feel of being a two stage. Of course he thought it was live but has no implements that require it.
 
#25 ·
Well, I just finished the first cutting of the 2017 season with the faux PTO installed. Got 57 3' X 3' bales. I have to say it worked perfectly except that I had to remove the small shovel foot because it snagged too much hay. Still raises the tractor about 3 inches without it. It was on the tractor when I started cutting the hay with my drum mower and about half way through the first field the tractor quit moving because so much fresh cut hay collected around and under the shovel foot that the wheel couldn't roll. I removed the cylinder and finished mowing then put it back on and started baling a few days later. I found that if I stayed to the left side of the windrow everything was OK but hay collected on it otherwise. After removing it, no issues at all. It was nice to just stop on the windrow, wrap the bale and eject, then continue.

Thanks to all who responded with ideas and suggestions.
 
#26 ·
Have kicked out thousands of small rounds with an old AC round bailer and non live PTO. JD B and Oliver 77. Even with live PTO you have to stop to wrap and drop the bailies. So the clutch gets depresses a few more times. 57 bailes x three crops of hay = 342 clutch strokes. I doubt the tractor would even notice.
But if the tractor dies with the trans in neutral and PTO engaged it would really stink for use with a round bailer.
 
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