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House Generator

10K views 65 replies 22 participants last post by  Drangd 
#1 ·
I would like some help in regards for this project. I presently have a portable generator that is about 5500 watts and gas. This works okay, get us through a short blackout. Friend just had a long blackout and the amount of gas he used was amazing. He has bigger house and bigger gen. Well I decided to look into a house setup. I only need about a 10KW unit and do not want portable since I want to hook into my propane tank, thusly fuel will not be an issue. If there is a good portable propane, I guess I could use it, but have not seen once reasonable. I also do not want it to kick on automatically. Most of the big items are propane. So I looked on the web and found a Briggs & Straton 10KW for about $2300 that is not portable, but it comes on automatically. Can I make it not come on automatically? They tell me NO. I have looked at Transfer Switches and found a good size Reliance model that uses regular size breakers so I can trade them out. The only big things to power is a water pump for the animals and the gas furnace in the house.

I will have a professional install the transfer switch, they have told me figure a day to install everything. Do I need to worry about back feed into the grid when using this or is that what the Transfer Switch takes care of? I want to do this right. Just really do not understand how this works. Recommendations and thoughts are needed.

I cannot see my wife toting gas cans for days on end to keep power to the essentials.

Thank you Gary
 
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#2 ·
The transfer switch - switches from your meter to the generator when no power is coming
from the meter. The transfer switch has to have power from the meter to keep from switching to the generator. Don't know how you would keep it from starting if you have the transfer switch.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Here's some info:

Wattage Calculator to be sure you get the right generator for the power you need: Wattage Calculator

Generator sales (take a look at the HONDA engine models): Propane Generators for Home Power or Prime Power

How transfer switch works:

Transfer Switches Simplified | Practical tips for understanding and installing these devices in residential applications

Autoswitch- How An Automatic Generator and Transfer Switch Works

Best to buy just a non-automatic generator if you want the manual switch over option. Have your electrician install a manual transfer switch after your meter.

Manual Transfer Switch Buyer's Guide - How to Pick the Perfect Manual Transfer Switch


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#4 ·
Why are you against the auto-on feature? For me, that is the big feature of a permanent generator. If I had natural gas to my house, an auto-start generator would be on the short list of "next purchases".

You said you don't want your wife toting gas cans. You also don't want her trying to start the thing in the middle of an ice storm.

My 5500 watt generator gets us through as well. Fortunately, we haven't had a multiday blackout since I got it. If we did, refueling and choosing what times to run it would make the experience get very old very fast.

Remember, the auto-start units also attempt to maintain themselves. They will run themselves for a short time periodically to keep fuel fresh and make sure everything is working properly. I humbly recommend that if you want to "do it right". get the whole house auto-start unit and don't look back.
 
#5 ·
Not sure I understand why you wouldn't want auto start. Before we put the 17KW whole house in, I was running a smaller 8.5 portable genny and had a small non-auto 6- circuit transfer switch that powered the well pump, furnace refrigerator, freezers and couple other small items. Lights were by oil lamps. Have quite a collection which we don't use any more. Whenever power went out, had to go out start generator, flip the transfer switches and light the oil lamps. Having all that done automatically is great, especially if power goes out in middle of night in the winter. Actually moved old setup to daughter's house and then when she moved into new house with auto backup, brought it back home. Figured it be a quick sell (transfer switch) but still on shelf in garage since everyone wants auto.
BTW, if you are checking prices on the web, make sure you ck out Ziller Electric in Chicago. Best prices by far, and free shipping to door. (at least for Generac) Just my 2¢.
MikeC
 
#6 ·
Just a few thoughts. Your needs/preferences may be way different:

- Permanent type generator is not really mandatory to accommodate propane.
- Transfer switch is not always mandatory; but some method of isolating from grid while in generator mode is.
- Multi-fuel generators are available and at reasonable prices.

Some pictures:
 

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#7 ·
You could have a manual transfer switch and manual or key start generator but unless cost is an issue why would you want to? This setup requires that somebody be home and willing to get up and go outside at 3 a.m. when the power goes out. The Briggs and Stratton you are looking at will not work with a manual transfer switch.
You need to ensure the switch is properly sized and compatible with the generator so they can 'talk' to each other. The Reliance you mention may not be, I am not familiar with that brand. Why are you concerned about switching out breakers? Don't try to install a heavier breaker to compensate for larger loads, if you need more capacity look at a larger generator/switch combo. To calculate needed capacity add up everything that might be running at any given time the add a minimum of 25% preferably 33% to compensate for starting loads. That is the minimum. If you don't have enough amps available you will cook that pump motor if the breaker doesn't trip. I seriously doubt a 10kw unit will be enough to run the house plus the pump, a 12kw and 100 amp transfer switch will give you a bit of a cushion. Just my $.02 cdn worth.
 
#8 ·
I threw my support behind the auto-start unit above, but I thought of another option you might like. Last year Costco had a portable generator with a remote start feature. If you know a storm is coming you can set up and plug in the generator in advance, and then if the power goes out you can fire the generator up from the relative comfort of your home at 3am, as opposed to tromping out in the snow at 3am.
 
#9 ·
one thing.. the auto start gens will sometimes have the battery OUTSIDE.. this is bad.. get them inside & run cables outside from the battery.. u can have a battery tender on the battery that will also tell u if ur battery needs replacin.. now then too a car battery can b used inside.. get a darn good one for that.. replacin it at anything over 6-8 year..
 
#10 ·
Briggs offers a battery blanket and oil warmer options that plug into the generator wiring, they are powered by the house service so there is no drain on the battery. The generator also has a built in battery minder.
As ggsteve mentioned, the unit will do a self test once a week. If the battery is low or there are any other problems a code will flash on the display panel. Of course, this requires periodically checking the display panel although a remote indoor monitor is available.
 
#11 ·
So I would like to thank everyone. All this information will help me and I intend to go to all the links.

The reason I do not want auto start, right or wrong. If power goes out at night, my house will stay warm enough until I get up at 5:30 AM. I get up everyday at this time to go take care of the furry friends in the animal barn. (Some of you would call it livestock, but you do not know how my wife takes care of them). We have mostly short power outages and for anything less the 3 or 4 hours, I simply wait for the power to come on. Winter or Summer. I just do not think it is best for all the things in the house to have the gen come on for a short outage and then go off. Also, would like the option that if there is a power outage, to not reconnect to the grid for an hour or so when power is resumed. I have a neighbor that has automatic and they lost there flat screen TV for this very reason. Thoughts on this would be more than great.

There are some quite large manual transfer switches. This is the one I am looking at now.

Reliance Controls ProTran 510A Indoor Manual Transfer Switch (50A)

I am thinking I could just go with a portable Propane also. Keep up the thoughts, you guys are all helping me and comments too.

Gary
 
#12 ·
Gary, the transfer switch you linked to has too many breakers for a portable generator. It would be too easy to overload it without careful monitoring. If you think you can stay on top of it, consider a single transfer switch like this. You control where the power goes using your existing breakers, and are not limited to six or ten circuits. It completely isolates the generator from the grid when in use, and it costs a lot less than the other types.

You can also get a conversion kit that will allow your present generator to run on propane.
 
#13 · (Edited)
The transfer switch I used was a Reliance, 4 circuits and a double breaker 240 for the well pump. Worked fine on my 8500 generator. Although the comments about starting it up at 3 am were right on the money. Didn't like going out at 3am. Fortunately most of the outages weren't in the middle of winter. But those that were, well that was the pits.
MikeC
 
#14 ·
the thing many folks don't realize about an autostart setup is they usually have a bypass mode. This allows you to keep the battery charged but does NOT automatically crank the genny in the event of a power failure. You must go to the switch and flip it to start manually. So when checking out sets look at the manual for the switch and make sure yours supports this feature. The drawback is some of them have a buzzer alarm that lets you know it is in bypass, but often the modification to silence the buzzer is in the manual.

Also, be sure to run it under load for at least 30 minutes a month. Nothing worse than firing up a gen set in a power outage to find out the field has collapsed and it won't output electricity! This is one advantage of many autostart systems, they can be set to auto run on a weekly basis for a 15-20 minute cycle.

Lastly, generators use a LOT of fuel. Even on your bulk LP tank a multi day outage can require a refill. My 5kw semi portable LP genny sucks fast enough to freeze up a 20# bottle. I don't know the exact rate, as I've never used it more than an hour or so at a time. Like your plan, I would wait a few hours after an outage started, then fire it up to recool the fridge and maybe run a few other things. Then shut it back down to save fuel.
 
#15 ·
Ford, your neighbor should have a surge protector on his electronics. The failure was not because of the generator, the tv doesn't know and doesn't care where the electricity comes from.
David, fuel consumption would not worry me unless power outages are a regular and prolonged event. I would have two 100 lb bottles, if one goes dry switch over and refill the empty. Is money so tight that you cannot afford to be warm and comfortable with the lights on?
 
#16 ·
nope, but my genny is not big enough to run everything and we have electric strip heat so it would take a good sized one to run the furnace. We have a fireplace for heat if necessary, and usually have it going anyway. Around here more outages are during summer though, and in the deep south there is plenty of warmth so you usually want to run the AC. LOL

ETA: at our old house the bulk tank was setup so I could hook the genny or even a LP grill to it if need be. Since we moved last year the new place is all electric and I didn't even bring the genny with us. I have it at our office and just test run it when I run the gas sets there.
 
#17 ·
Propane Consumption Rate shows what I am talking about, a 100# bottle would barely last a day on a 10kw gen set running half load. if running full load it won't last 12 hours! Of course, unless you just insist on running everything at once and all the time it won't be anywhere near full load all the time so the run time can increase drastically. But I know for certain that a 30kw running the county radio sites will empty the 500 gallon tank every couple days, but that is a much bigger constant load than the average residential location will ever see.
 
#19 ·
I am learning a lot. So on the propane front, here is the question. One of the generators I am looking at uses 1.4 gallons per hour on propane. What is that when hooked up to a 100 lb bottle, how long will it run in hours?
 
#18 ·
Davidg,

Never really thought about consumption rates on fuels, always looked at longevity. I've always wanted a slow RPM gen-set like a Lister diesel engine driven model which runs around 1800 RPMs compared to gasoline / propane units which run at 3600 RPMs. The higher RPM engine gen-sets will eventually rattle themselves to uselessness while the slower diesel engine will chug along for many years longer. To bad the clean air act halted sales of the engines in the US.

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#21 ·
but also keep in mind a 100# bottle is filled to 80% so it is only 80# of LP. That works out to 13.6 hours of run time IF you run the tank completely dry. No matter how you shake it, running a generator is going to cost 50-100.00 a day for fuel, which is why a lot of folks learn to run only the essentials and only as much as needed.

Back in '94 we had a massive ice storm, 6-8" of ice on everything. My parents house was without power for a week. a day into the outage one of our contacts at the local POCO gave us a generator(we did their radio work). I took it to my mom's to get her fridge back going before everything ruined. My stepdad came up a few hours later and saw the genny running. he came in fussing about wasting fuel. Then the smell hit him, I had popped some popcorn and was stretched out watching a movie. He kicked me out the chair and made me go back to work, then he sat down and watched it. We were working round the clock with the power company, in the first 3 days I got 4 hours sleep/down time total. We had the other guys from work come over that evening for a meal and to give everyone a break! Their house got power back after a week, my wife's grandmother lived in the country and it was 35 days before she had power again!!

During extended outages sometimes you do want to run nonessential stuff just for comfort, heck it is even necessary to maintain sanity at times. But you just have to determine if the cost is worth it. Sure if it is going to be a few hours, no big deal. But in the event of a multiday outage it is always wise to conserve when you can.
 
#22 ·
During extended outages sometimes you do want to run nonessential stuff just for comfort, heck it is even necessary to maintain sanity at times. But you just have to determine if the cost is worth it. Sure if it is going to be a few hours, no big deal. But in the event of a multiday outage it is always wise to conserve when you can.
Remember when using gasoline for fuel even if you don't mind going to get fuel the driveway/roads may be impassible and there is no guarantee that the local stations will have power or fuel. You learn quickly which stations have their own generators.
 
#24 ·
I was released from the hospital on an August Friday after having a stroke then Katrina hit Monday; you guessed it, no power for well over a week and no genset but we did have water and canned food. The Red Cross was set up at our church and as food thawed in the freezer I would fire up the Kingsford and a camp fuel Coleman stove. We kept only what we would eat for a meal then carried the rest to the church. I may have a false sense of security but when things got back to normal I purchased a Honda EU3000 & a EU2000 generator which were on sale at our local dealer, a small portable a/c and still keep spare bags of charcoal, bottled water and several filled gas cans treated with Sta-bil at all times for the mower, tiller and just in case the gensets. I made up 2 heavy duty extension cords utilizing inline duplex receptacle boxes to plug in the basic items needing power (fridge, lights, a/c, computer, tv). When our freezer died we did not replace it as that event certainly changed the way we purchase groceries to this day and we always fill our vehicles up when they hit half tank. That was one of the hardest tests of faith and endurance we have experienced and I pray no one has to go thru an ordeal like that anytime soon.
 
#25 ·
I'm sitting at home now waiting on trucking company to deliver Generac 16KW natural gas generator. My son already has his installed and working on Propane tied to his large tank. The Utility company will have to come out and pull the meter so the electrician can hook the transfer switch. I am doing all this for roughly $4300 which is, to me, a small price to pay for the security it affords. Bought it on sale about $350 less than shows here.

Generac Generators | The Leader in Standby Power Generation
 
#26 ·
I'll share some here. After a short outage, I bought a new generator. Right in the middle of the outage, the old one blew a rod, literally. It knocked a hole in the side of the engine and went flying out into the woods. It was small but would run the fridge OR the two freezers, not all at the same time. I bought it used but I think it was around 1500W or so. Tiny really. It did show how handy they were tho. It gave me ideas.

The new Generator I bought, it's 3500W running and 4800W start up. When we had our last power outage, I ran cables I had for the generator. The fridge pulls the most at about 800 to 900 watts running. The start up on the fridge is large. The deep freezers pull a couple hundred watts each once running and the start up is a lot better too, shorter and not such a large draw. The way I do is this. I start the fridge first on its own leg. I wait a couple minutes, usually while I'm running the next cable, then start the freezers one at a time with a minute or so between each one. After that, I plug the TV into the same leg as the freezers. We have DirecTV so it takes a few minutes to load itself up. Even with all that running, the generator doesn't seem to have much of a load on it. It doesn't have a meter or anything but judging by the sound, it isn't working to hard. The hardest part is when the fridge starts up. That puts a load on it. Going by power draw when on local power company, I figure the fridge on one leg and the rest on the other pretty well balances it out. It may not be perfect but pretty close.

Also, if I need to recharge some flash light batteries, I plug that in with the TV, cell phones too. I have dozens of rechargeable batteries and chargers that can charge as many as eight at a time. Must have flashlights.

I usually run the Generator until the fridge and freezers turn off. I have external temp gauges on the freezers so I can tell what they are without opening the door and loosing any cold. Once the fridge and freezers are cold, off goes the generator.

Heat. We have electric central heat that we no longer use. It's just not efficient at all. The duct work needs replacing. So, we use space heaters in each room. I get the real good ones that cost a little more and have safety features. I like the ceramic ones myself. Also, I have a kerosene heater that can heat the place all by itself. If there is no power, kerosene it is. For the summer, I could run a A/C but likely won't. We'd just have to sweat it out a bit.

Also, I have a Coleman stove that is dual fuel. I have some camping fuel for it but I also have 55 gallon drums of gas with Marvel Mystery Oil in it. I'm not saying how many I have but I'll likely have gas when no one else does, including some gas stations. I also have diesel in drums for the tractor as well, in case a tree falls around the house. Chainsaw ready for business too. I could heat some foods on the kerosene heater, if it just needs warming up, like can foods or something.

Everything I run on the generator has to be unplugged from the wall to hook to the generator. That is my way of making sure there is no power going out into the lines. I like the guys and gals working at our local power company and certainly wouldn't want any of them to get hurt, or any of my neighbors either. I'm just not worried about a transfer switch and making it that easy, yet.

To the OP. You have a lot of good advice. You seem to be doing things that make it easier than my setup, even if you use a manual switch and manual start to do it, but one could do it my way IF power outages are somewhat rare. Even tho I live quite a ways off from the coast, we do get power outages from hurricanes at times. Our local power company is really good at getting things back going tho. The longest I can recall since I was a kid, about 26 hours. We live waaaaay out to just about the end of the line too. We are about as far from the power station as you can get so we are usually the last to get power back. The biggest thing I would suggest, make sure you have options. The thing I don't like about propane, if the outage lasts long enough or the weather is bad enough, it could limit your options. Gas, even Diesel, can be found in several places, vehicles, tractors, large trucks etc. Propane, not so much. If it were me, I'd at least consider having a larger tank or a gas generator as backup, just in case. Look at the history of power outages you have had in your area over the last couple decades and plan for at least that. If your setup can't last that long, you may want to work on a new plan. Remember, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I wish I had a diesel generator. Those engines last so long. I'd worry more about the power generating part than the engine going out. I could run it off the tractor too. OP, do you have that as a option? Since you are sort of manual like me, if you have a tractor, having a generator that hooks to it could help.

Oh, I've monitored power after major outages before. A place I used to work at had what we called the blue box. It was a line analyzer. It could detect if even one cycle was missing. Low voltage, to high a voltage etc etc and it prints it out. When we would hook that up after power outages, the power was a mess. Sags, surges, extended brownouts etc etc. It would be printing pretty steady if not continuously. Word of advice, even when power comes back on, give it at least a couple hours before going back on line power with anything expensive or sensitive to that sort of problem. The longer it has been out, the longer one needs to wait. Afterwards, check all your surge protectors and make sure they are still working correctly. Some have those LEDs that change colors when they die. Just a additional thought.
 
#27 ·
To ehammond :fing32: You will really appreciate the peace of mind. I hope you have a knowledgeable dealer to help you with the installation and after sale service. I formerly sold stand by systems, too many people bought online or from mass retailers then came to us looking for help. The generator and t/s were mismatched, they had the wrong unit for their needs, it was improperly installed or the so called 'technician' didn't know what he was doing.
If we owned the house we would seriously look at one. We have had some power outages, fortunately none lasting more than a day and not during cold weather, but they did create problems because of my wife's medical needs.
 
#29 ·
My biggest problem now is keeping the fuel fresh. I used to rotate through two treated 5 gallon cans of gasoline with my tractors and other OPE. I would use the oldest fuel until it was gone, then refill and switch to the other can. Since I got my diesel tractor and it is my main worker I don't go through gasoline nearly as fast.

I also can't get by the irony that the one piece of power equipment you absolutely never ever want to use is your generator!
 
#31 ·
I have found that Marvel Mystery Oil works well as a stabilizer. Several years ago, I found a 2 gallon jug that had fell behind a large shelf full of stuff I rarely use. I found it one day while looking for something. I kept mower gas in it. It had been there for years, at least 5 or 6 maybe even more. I thought I left it outside and someone stole the thing. Anyway, I always put MMO in my gas jug when filling them up. I took the gas and put some in a old push mower, not sure what to expect even tho it smelled the same as new gas. Anyway, I started the mower and mowed the whole front yard without a single sputter. Still had good power, for a small mower anyway.

I thought I would really test it. I mixed a small batch of weed eater mix. Put it in my almost 30 year old and very picky on gas weed eater and off I went. I weed eated the whole ditch, around trees and several other places until I ran out of gas. It never missed a beat.

I mentioned in my other post, I store gas in 55 gallon drums and add MMO there as well. I've used that gas at times for the car, mower, helping someone out of gas close by etc etc and never had it go bad. Sometimes, it sits there for 3 or 4 years at least. I got enough to last about a year so rotating wouldn't be to easy. You may want to try MMO. It's cheap plus it lubs and cleans your fuel system. Oh, you can also add it to oil and clean that part too. I started buying it by the gallon long ago.
 
#30 ·
I installed a new 20KW Generac whole house unit with a 200 AMP transfer switch a few years ago and have never regretted it. I had a 5500 W portable before that and it was a strain on it for my well and hot water heater and two fridges. Couldn't run the AC. I'm hooked to natural gas and i would have to dig out my manual to see how much it uses. I know a few times we have lost power for 3 or 4 days at a time and let it run the whole time and it didn't seem to bump my gas bill up significantly but natural gas is still pretty cheap here. After a long run time I always change the oil. The battery is in the unit and is a small car battery. The unit has a built in tender. There are warning lights on the side of the unit that remind me of service intervals or if there is an issue with the battery. I installed it with the help of a co-worker after i retired. Both of us are retired electricians.
The one complaint I have is I can't adjust the run time on the weekly exercise cycle. It's not long enough if the temps are in the deep freeze. I noticed the first cold winter i had it the oil was starting to look milky. Now when it's bitter cold and it runs through an exercise cycle i will go out and start it manually and run it another 20 minutes and have never had that issue again. I called Generac to complain about this issue and they didn't seem interested that it is a problem.
 

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